[Advaita-l] shankara speaking on behalf of or speaking to ??
bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com
Wed Feb 7 07:22:14 EST 2018
praNAms Sri ChandramouLi prabhuji
I have clarified earlier also, and you have quoted also in your post, that vAsana pertains to residual impression of the experience of karma. With this understanding, karma ( referring to yet to be experienced karma) and vAsana are independent of each other. Hence vAsana cannot be put “ under “ or “ within the scope of “ any type of karma (sanchita/prarabdha/AgAmi). Incidentally I noticed you have used the term “anAdi saMskAra bala “ later in your post while dealing with prasaMkhyAna. Under what head is this covered in your understanding, sanchita/AgAmi/prarabdha karma ??. In my understanding, samskAra refers to vAsanAs, and also does not cover “ I am kartru, bhOktru “ etc.. “ I am kartru, bhOktru “ etc is due to anAdi avidya.
Ø If I am right you have made two parts with regard to karma and vAsana and wants to put it in two different compartments. Here it is :
Ø (a) vAsana-s pertain to experience of Karma in previous janma/s which cannot be categorized as any type of karma but can be tagged as just saMskAra / vAsana.
Ø (b) karma phala (prArabdha karma phala) which is yet to be experienced in the current janma.
Ø Again if I am right you clarified that the experience of prArabdha karma phala is NOT experience per se but it happens just like that for the jnAni. And also clarified that . impressions left behind by experience in the current body is covered under smruti and it is not vAsana. vAsana is neither smruti nor any type of karma phala it is something different from both and it is anAdi saMskAra accured in previous births.
Ø Hope I am rightly representing your thoughts here. Please confirm I shall continue my discussion with regard to this after getting your concurrence.
Reg << jnAnavannu karma prAbalya / saMskAra hodeya bahudu says Sri SSS in Kannada. >>,
I take it that you are stating this from memory and not quoting from his text. Sri SSS has himself clarified in the footnote against his translation for the Bhashya << labdhavrutteH karmaNO baleeyastvAt >> as follows.
Quote << jnAnavannu karmavu hodeyabahudendu oppi ee vAkyavannu baredide embudu spashta. Munde bhashya. bhaga 173ralli jnAnige viparIta pratyaya untAgalAradembudannu AchAryare spashtapadisiddAre >>
Yes prabhuji, I remembered having read this in Sri SSS work and quoted roughly as remembered. For that matter ‘ jnAnavannu karmavu hodeyabahudu’ the sentence itself gives lot of room to think about the supposed weakness of samyak jnana. Because it has been said here that ‘samyakjnAna prAptAvapi. But as you know shankara himself talks about continuation of ‘digbhrAnti’, dviteeya Chandra darshana etc. is it not ‘vipareeta pratyaya?? This vipareeta pratyaya will subside in a jnAni very fast but we should not say that he (jnAni) is free from any vipareeta pratyaya. It is due to which even the samyak jnAni is subject to kAma-krOdha, rAga-dvesha etc. you might have heard this from the traditional views under the umbrella of ‘avidyA lesha’. Now this continuation of digbhrAnti / dviteeya Chandra darshana etc. is due to vAsana or avidyA lesha or prArabdha karma phala?? This question is quite appropriate I reckon since you have already agreed that shankara said all these on behalf of jnAni and not to pacity the on-lookers who are questioning jnAni’s questionable behavior.
Reg << I shall provide Sri SSS’s explanation with regard to this in due course in the meanwhile kindly let me know the different interpretation that you have with regard to ‘prasaMkhyAna’. >>,
PrasMkhyAna refers to sAdhanAs prior to and FOR attainment of jnAna. It could refer to sAdhanAs undertaken after parOksha jnAna. It does not refer to any sAdhanAs undertaken after attainment of jnAna (aparOksha jnAna). I have not come across any place where Sri SSS has stated differently. Anyway I await your reference on this.
Ø If the prasaMkhyAna refers to only sAdhaka-s and parOksha jnAni-s, no need for shankara to refute prasamkhyAna vAda. If I remember Sri SSS’s words right, he categorically says prasaMkhyAna is the way recommended to the jnAni-s for getting the sAkshAtkAra even after nishchita jnana since shAstra vAkya janita jnana in itself is NOT sufficient since it will always be parOksha and hence it requires a subsequent experience in the form of sAkshAtkAra. Anyway I may have to re-look into the relevant portion in Sri SSS works.
Sri SSS clarifies in the footnotes against BUB 4-4-21 and 1-4-7. Under 4-4-21 Sri SSS mentions as follows. ( not literal translation.)
Reference may also be made to BUB 3-5-1 and comments by Sri SSS therein concerning sAdhanAs for a jnAni.
Ø Do you mean here sAdhana-s for an aparOksha jnAni I think your answer is yes because you clarified in your earlier post that
Ø //quote // If you are contending that with aparOksha jnana, a jnani ALWAYS remains in that state, I clarify that my understanding is different. Such a jnani needs to undertake further sAdhanAs to remain continuously established in that state. That is what vidwat sanyAsa is all about.//unquote//. My contention is very clear an aparOksha jnAni is krutakrutya he does not have to do anything in the form of sAdhana since in him sAdhakatva / kartrutva bhAva itself is absent and he is ‘krutakrutya’. Sri SSS somewhere observes that if anyone says after Atma jnana (aparOksha Atmaikatva jnana) there is some kartavya then it is shruti and smruti viruddha and since in him (jnAni) there is complete absence of kartrutva / bhOktrutva bhAva and his realization is such that he was/ is / will always be nitya mukta Atma no further sAdhana should be enjoined to him, it is yukti viruddha as well. Anyway, I shall have to search for his exact words.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
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