[Advaita-l] Sleep, tamas and brahman

[Venkatraghavan S]

Agreed. I am not saying the Atma's perception is lost in deep sleep (for
the shruti itself says नहि द्रष्टुर्दृष्टेर्विपरिलोपो विद्यते), I am saying
ignorance of the nature of agrahaNam is not perceivable. Its presence can
only be inferred by its effects.  We infer its presence because its effects
are seen later - in the waking and dream states. As we are satkAryavAdins,
we hold that those effects must have be present in a causal state in deep
sleep.

Regards,
Venkatraghavan

On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 10:28 AM, Kalyan <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com> wrote:

> //The very nature of ignorance in deep sleep is agrahaNam, non-perception,
> so how can it be perceived?//
>
> Sri Venkatraghavanji
>
> The so-called lack of perception in deep sleep is not real. Shankara
> answers this. The Self actually continues to see in deep sleep because the
> vision of witness can never be lost. But there is no second thing to be
> seen etc.
>
> Regards
> Kalyan
> On Friday, May 4, 2018, 2:45:51 PM GMT+5:30, Kalyan <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Sri Venkatraghavanji
>
> I believe your reading is not natural. If you look at the entire passage,
> the self in deep sleep is said to be free from all ill-things many times
> and the self in deep sleep is also called as the highest and advaitam.  It
> is also mentioned about 8 or 9 times that there is no second thing in deep
> sleep. Since self is advaitam and there is no second thing, for that reason
> also, there is no ignorance in deep sleep. You are welcome to disagree with
> me, but from my side, I will leave it at that.
>
> Regards
> Kalyan
>
> On Friday, May 4, 2018, 2:36:56 PM GMT+5:30, Venkatraghavan S <
> agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Kalyanji.
>
> Swami Madhavananda translates this as "The form of the self that is
> directly perceived in the sate of profound sleep is free from ignorance,
> desire and work". All this is saying is that the self is perceived as free
> from ignorance - this does not mean is that ignorance is absent. Why?
>
> The relationship between ignorance and the self is what is being denied
> here (if you see the first sentence of this bhAShya), Swami Madhavananda
> says - "It has been said that the self-effulgent Atman which is being
> described is free from ignorance, desire and work, for it is unattached,
> while they are adventitious". Again, the focus of the teaching is the
> freedom of Atma from ignorance, not the absence of ignorance.
>
> The very nature of ignorance in deep sleep is agrahaNam, non-perception,
> so how can it be perceived? The failure to perceive it does not mean that
> it does not exist.
>
> Kind regards,
> Venkatraghavan
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 9:51 AM, Kalyan via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> //Thus Shankara is not saying that ignorance is absent in deep sleep, but
> that the Atma is absent from ignorance can be understood from the
> experience of deep sleep.//
>
>
> Dear Sri Venkatraghavanji,
>
> Your reading is not correct. The bhAshya means that the form of the self
> that is free from ignorance is experienced in deep sleep. You are welcome
> to check translation of Swami Madhavananda.
>
> In fact, the whole teaching stands because the self is free from ignorance
> in deep sleep. Otherwise, ignorance will become the nature of the self.
>
> By observing the 3 states and showing that in deep sleep, there is no
> ignorance, it is shown that the self can achieve liberation, as ignorance
> is not in the nature of the self.
>
> Regards
> Kalyan
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