[Advaita-l] Is the eternity and apaurusheyatva of Vedas a mere belief

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

One more word regarding the eternality of the Veda. For us advaitins,
language (shabda) precedes the creation of the universe which is ultimately
understood as mithyA of course.  But initially, Advaita does accept this
language-based creation model of the universe or shabda-pUrvikA sRSHTi.
(BSB 1.3.28 )


 This is totally outside the belief framework of modern science which
refuses to accept the elephant in the room viz., the qualia of
consciousness and yet merrily go about using the same qualia as irreducible
raw data to form theories etc.


On Fri 7 Jun, 2019, 9:31 PM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula, <raghavkumar00 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaste Sudhanshu ji
> We had a lot of discussion on this very forum some ten years back I think
> on this.
>
> I can summarise some of those points for your reference.
>
> shAstrayonitvAt bhAshya and devatAdhikaraNam bhAShya (शब्द इति चेत्, न,
> अतः प्रभवात् प्रत्यक्षानुमानाभ्याम्  1.3.28) in brahmasUtras are very
> insightful here.
>
> 1. Any pramANa is "self-proving", it does not need another pramANa to
> justify its functioning as a pramANa. That the eyes see is self-evident
> etc. This is svatah-pramANya-vAda.
> 2. shabda pramANa is a pramANa. It's validity is based on the nitya
> sambandha between shabda (word) and artha (meaning). There is a key mImAmsA
> word 'anapexitatvaM' i.e., Vedic sentences independent function as a
> pramANa.
>
> In Jaimini Dharma Sutras we have the famous autpattika sutra. Check out
>
> https://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2004-February/012666.html
>
> 3. Veda is a type of shabda pramANa. Another type of shabda pramANa is
> Apta vAkya.
> 4. That "Veda is a pramANa" is derived from 1. and 2. itself. However the
> prAmANyam or "validity" of what is being taught/revealed in the Veda
> pramANa needs apauruSheya-nityatvaM to free it from pauruSheya doShas. The
> prAmANyam of  Apta vAkya is not free of doShas since it is pauruSheya and
> hence subject to future revision.
>
> Hope this helps to get started....
>
> Om
> Raghav
>
>
>
>
> On Fri 7 Jun, 2019, 6:12 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l, <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> Hari Om Raghava ji,
>>
>> Do you feel that that our belief that Vedas are apaurusheya is reasonable?
>>
>> Regards.
>> Sudhanshu.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 4:32 PM kuntimaddi sadananda via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>> > PraNAms
>> > Eternity also relative here just as ignorance is anaadi. Both muula
>> avidya
>> > and therefore its counter Vedanta both come vyaavahaarika Satyam - and
>> only
>> > eternal in that realm.
>> > Now is the existence of muula avidya - a belief, faith or fact? If it is
>> > taken as fact then its counter should also come under the same category.
>> > That I have been searching for inexhaustible eternal happiness seems to
>> be
>> > a fundamental problem which cannot but be anaadi.
>> >
>> > Hari Om!Sadananda
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >     On Friday, June 7, 2019, 04:35:48 AM EDT, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via
>> > Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >  Namaste Sudhanshu j
>> > The usual binary is logic vs. belief . I would suggest that there is
>> also
>> > 'reasonable belief' which cannot be categorically put in either
>> category.
>> >
>> > For example the belief that there is continuity beyond the death of the
>> > body for the stream of consciousness. Or the law of karma. In which
>> > category would you put them?
>> >
>> > Also we could say that they (law of karma etc.) are not falsifiable.
>> They
>> > don't conflict with anything logical. If any thing in the Vedas is
>> (let's
>> > say) found to conflict with reason/logic, then either of two things
>> > happens.
>> >
>> >  1. We thoroughly reexamine the so-called logical claims of pratyaxa and
>> > anumAna and may find them to be flawed. This usually happens with
>> claims of
>> > science offering reductionist physicalistic analyses of consciousness ,
>> > prANa, manas etc.
>> >
>> > 2. If needed, suitable reinterpretation may be needed of Vedic sentences
>> > especially where they are dealing with areas of overlap with other
>> > pramANas, taking in to view the shad-lingas etc.
>> >
>> > Most of the Vedic sentences deal with matters which are anyway  by
>> > definition beyond the purview of pratyaxa and anumAna.
>> >
>> > Om
>> > Raghav
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri 7 Jun, 2019, 1:46 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l, <
>> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hari Om,
>> > >
>> > > we all agree that the basis of Dharma and Brahma-jnana is Vedas alone.
>> > > Vedas are the tool to both abhyudaya and nihshreyas. Further, we hold
>> > them
>> > > to be a pramana. That is the Veda-vakyas are pramana just by virtue of
>> > > being a Veda-vakya. The reasons adduced are mainly the apurusheyatva
>> and
>> > > eternity of Vedas.
>> > >
>> > > We all have gone through the arguments adduced in support of eternity
>> and
>> > > apurusheyatva of Vedas.
>> > >
>> > > My question is -- do these arguments really establish the eternity and
>> > > apaurusheyatva of Vedas OR are these our beliefs. That is, whether our
>> > > Sanatan Dharma and our sadhana-for-Moksha are essentially
>> belief-driven
>> > or
>> > > are they based on sound logic.
>> > >
>> > > Regards.
>> > > Sudhanshu.
>> > > _______________________________________________
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