[Advaita-l] Is the eternity and apaurusheyatva of Vedas a mere belief

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

Please read my previous message first sentence as 'the eternality of the
veda'

On Fri 7 Jun, 2019, 9:42 PM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula, <raghavkumar00 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> One more word regarding the eternality of the Veda. For us advaitins,
> language (shabda) precedes the creation of the universe which is ultimately
> understood as mithyA of course.  But initially, Advaita does accept this
> language-based creation model of the universe or shabda-pUrvikA sRSHTi.
> (BSB 1.3.28 )
>
>
>  This is totally outside the belief framework of modern science which
> refuses to accept the elephant in the room viz., the qualia of
> consciousness and yet merrily go about using the same qualia as irreducible
> raw data to form theories etc.
>
>
> On Fri 7 Jun, 2019, 9:31 PM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula, <
> raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Sudhanshu ji
>> We had a lot of discussion on this very forum some ten years back I think
>> on this.
>>
>> I can summarise some of those points for your reference.
>>
>> shAstrayonitvAt bhAshya and devatAdhikaraNam bhAShya (शब्द इति चेत्, न,
>> अतः प्रभवात् प्रत्यक्षानुमानाभ्याम्  1.3.28) in brahmasUtras are very
>> insightful here.
>>
>> 1. Any pramANa is "self-proving", it does not need another pramANa to
>> justify its functioning as a pramANa. That the eyes see is self-evident
>> etc. This is svatah-pramANya-vAda.
>> 2. shabda pramANa is a pramANa. It's validity is based on the nitya
>> sambandha between shabda (word) and artha (meaning). There is a key mImAmsA
>> word 'anapexitatvaM' i.e., Vedic sentences independent function as a
>> pramANa.
>>
>> In Jaimini Dharma Sutras we have the famous autpattika sutra. Check out
>>
>> https://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2004-February/012666.html
>>
>> 3. Veda is a type of shabda pramANa. Another type of shabda pramANa is
>> Apta vAkya.
>> 4. That "Veda is a pramANa" is derived from 1. and 2. itself. However the
>> prAmANyam or "validity" of what is being taught/revealed in the Veda
>> pramANa needs apauruSheya-nityatvaM to free it from pauruSheya doShas. The
>> prAmANyam of  Apta vAkya is not free of doShas since it is pauruSheya and
>> hence subject to future revision.
>>
>> Hope this helps to get started....
>>
>> Om
>> Raghav
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri 7 Jun, 2019, 6:12 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l, <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hari Om Raghava ji,
>>>
>>> Do you feel that that our belief that Vedas are apaurusheya is
>>> reasonable?
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>> Sudhanshu.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 4:32 PM kuntimaddi sadananda via Advaita-l <
>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> > PraNAms
>>> > Eternity also relative here just as ignorance is anaadi. Both muula
>>> avidya
>>> > and therefore its counter Vedanta both come vyaavahaarika Satyam - and
>>> only
>>> > eternal in that realm.
>>> > Now is the existence of muula avidya - a belief, faith or fact? If it
>>> is
>>> > taken as fact then its counter should also come under the same
>>> category.
>>> > That I have been searching for inexhaustible eternal happiness seems
>>> to be
>>> > a fundamental problem which cannot but be anaadi.
>>> >
>>> > Hari Om!Sadananda
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >     On Friday, June 7, 2019, 04:35:48 AM EDT, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula
>>> via
>>> > Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >  Namaste Sudhanshu j
>>> > The usual binary is logic vs. belief . I would suggest that there is
>>> also
>>> > 'reasonable belief' which cannot be categorically put in either
>>> category.
>>> >
>>> > For example the belief that there is continuity beyond the death of the
>>> > body for the stream of consciousness. Or the law of karma. In which
>>> > category would you put them?
>>> >
>>> > Also we could say that they (law of karma etc.) are not falsifiable.
>>> They
>>> > don't conflict with anything logical. If any thing in the Vedas is
>>> (let's
>>> > say) found to conflict with reason/logic, then either of two things
>>> > happens.
>>> >
>>> >  1. We thoroughly reexamine the so-called logical claims of pratyaxa
>>> and
>>> > anumAna and may find them to be flawed. This usually happens with
>>> claims of
>>> > science offering reductionist physicalistic analyses of consciousness ,
>>> > prANa, manas etc.
>>> >
>>> > 2. If needed, suitable reinterpretation may be needed of Vedic
>>> sentences
>>> > especially where they are dealing with areas of overlap with other
>>> > pramANas, taking in to view the shad-lingas etc.
>>> >
>>> > Most of the Vedic sentences deal with matters which are anyway  by
>>> > definition beyond the purview of pratyaxa and anumAna.
>>> >
>>> > Om
>>> > Raghav
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Fri 7 Jun, 2019, 1:46 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l, <
>>> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Hari Om,
>>> > >
>>> > > we all agree that the basis of Dharma and Brahma-jnana is Vedas
>>> alone.
>>> > > Vedas are the tool to both abhyudaya and nihshreyas. Further, we hold
>>> > them
>>> > > to be a pramana. That is the Veda-vakyas are pramana just by virtue
>>> of
>>> > > being a Veda-vakya. The reasons adduced are mainly the apurusheyatva
>>> and
>>> > > eternity of Vedas.
>>> > >
>>> > > We all have gone through the arguments adduced in support of
>>> eternity and
>>> > > apurusheyatva of Vedas.
>>> > >
>>> > > My question is -- do these arguments really establish the eternity
>>> and
>>> > > apaurusheyatva of Vedas OR are these our beliefs. That is, whether
>>> our
>>> > > Sanatan Dharma and our sadhana-for-Moksha are essentially
>>> belief-driven
>>> > or
>>> > > are they based on sound logic.
>>> > >
>>> > > Regards.
>>> > > Sudhanshu.
>>> > > _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>> --
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>>> Pune
>>>
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>>