[Advaita-l] No Parinama in Brahman says Shankara Bhagavatpada

[kuntimaddi sadananda]

Sudhanshuji - PraNAms.
Creation itself involves an activity - whether it is vivarta or pariNAms. Hence valid in Vyavahaara. Hence scripture says - vaachaarambhanam - naamkevaaste creation. 
>From the point of Brahman, there is no creation - hence no activity and what you are referring to corresponds from that reference.
There is a sloka in vivekachuudaamaNi - defining the maayaa and avidya- starts with avyaktanaamneee paramesha shakti....
Essentially it is sat asat vialakshNam - neither sat nor asat. 
Hari Om!Sadananda


 

    On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 09:41:41 AM EDT, Sudhanshu Shekhar <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 Hari Om Acharya Sada ji,
Whether it is "gold appearing as ornament" or "bangle converting into gold" -- there is activity. And that is against nishkriyatva. 
I understand that the standard answer would be -- from the point of view of gold, there is no activity. But from the point of view of gold, there is no ornament itself. 
The problem is -- gold CANNOT appear as ornament unless there is space which is different from gold. Brahman CANNOT appear as world unless there is something different from Brahman. A singular object cannot appear as anything else. And that is not possible in advaita.
Regards.Sudhanshu.


On Tue 25 Jun, 2019, 17:26 kuntimaddi sadananda via Advaita-l, <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

PraNAms
We had some discussion related to this when an issue was raised in relation to some slokas in Panchadasi when we were doing those slokas - about a year ago.
Transformation gold into ornaments is vivarta while the transformation of a ring into a bangle is parinaama. 
vaachaarambhanam vikaaro naamadheyam - relates to vivarta than parinaama. 
Hari Om!Sadananda

    On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 03:44:12 AM EDT, H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:  

 Namaste,

Very  happy to see the correction issued , suo moto, in respect  of one
part. Hope and wish the same will follow, sooner than later,  in respect of
the following part as well.

<< Shankara has elsewhere denied any parinama even in
the case of clay, etc. The Chandogya and Manukya karika bhashya-s are the
references >>.

Regards

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On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:02 PM V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Brahma Sutra Bhashya 2.1.14
>
>  ननु मृदादिदृष्टान्तप्रणयनात् परिणामवद्ब्रह्म शास्त्रस्याभिमतमिति गम्यते ;
> परिणामिनो हि मृदादयोऽर्था लोके समधिगता इति ।
>
> Question: From the analogies of clay, gold and iron, it appears that
> Brahman is subject to transformation since it is admitted in the world that
> clay, etc. undergo transformation to yield their effects of pot, ornament,
> etc.
>
> Reply:  It is not so. The shruti passages such as This Atman is unborn,
> beyond death, old age, etc. not gross, not subtle, etc. preclude the above
> conclusion. These passages teach that Atman is immutable, kUTastha. Can we
> say that one Brahman alone is endowed with the attribute of transformation
> and also the absence of it? Not so since we have stated Brahman to be
> kUTastha, immutable. Such a Brahman cannot have conflicting attributes such
> as movement and fixed in one place. Brahman is kutastha and nitya because
> it is devoid of all transformations. It is also not the case that just as
> the realization that Brahman is verily the Atman leads to moksha, the
> transformation of Brahman, independently, is aimed at giving some fruit (to
> the aspirant), as there is no pramana for such a contention. The shruti
> teaches that the moksha phala is attained only by realizing the kuTastha
> brahman (and not by knowing Brahman to be subject to transformation). It is
> the firm conclusion that while there is the fruit (of liberation) only by
> knowing Brahman as kUTastha, there is no fruit stated in the shaastra for
> knowing Brahman as endowed with transformation as the world, the latter is
> only a means to realize Brahman as kUTastha resulting in moksha. There is
> absolutely no fruit in knowing Brahman as the one transforming into the
> world.
>
> नेत्युच्यते — ‘ स वा एष महानज आत्माजरोऽमरोऽमृतोऽभयो ब्रह्म’ (बृ. उ. ४ । ४ ।
> २५)
> <
> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Brha?page=4&id=BR_C04_S04_V25&hl=%20%E0%A4%B8%20%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%20%E0%A4%8F%E0%A4%B7%20%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B9%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%9C%20%E0%A4%86%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%BD%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%BD%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%BD%E0%A4%AD%E0%A4%AF%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%AC%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%B9%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AE
> >
>  ‘ स एष नेति नेत्यात्मा’ (बृ. उ. ३ । ९ । २६)
> <
> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Brha?page=3&id=BR_C03_S09_V26&hl=%20%E0%A4%B8%20%E0%A4%8F%E0%A4%B7%20%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF%20%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BE
> >
>  ‘ अस्थूलमनणु’ (बृ. उ. ३ । ८ । ८)
> <
> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Brha?page=3&id=BR_C03_S08_V08&hl=%20%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A5%E0%A5%82%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%A3%E0%A5%81
> >
>  इत्याद्याभ्यः सर्वविक्रियाप्रतिषेधश्रुतिभ्यः ब्रह्मणः कूटस्थत्वावगमात् ; न
> ह्येकस्य ब्रह्मणः परिणामधर्मत्वं तद्रहितत्वं च शक्यं प्रतिपत्तुम् । स्थिति
> गतिवत्स्यादिति चेत् , न ; कूटस्थस्येति विशेषणात् ; न हि कूटस्थस्य ब्रह्मणः
> स्थितिगति-वदनेकधर्माश्रयत्वं सम्भवति ; कूटस्थं च नित्यं ब्रह्म
> सर्वविक्रियाप्रतिषेधादित्यवोचाम । न च यथा ब्रह्मण आत्मैकत्वदर्शनं
> मो-क्षसाधनम् , एवं जगदाकारपरिणामित्वदर्शनमपि स्वतन्त्रमेव
> कस्मैचित्फलायाभिप्रेयते, प्रमाणाभावात् ; कूटस्थब्रह्मात्मैकत्वविज्ञानादेव
> हि
>  फलं दर्शयति शास्त्रम् — ‘ स एष नेति नेत्यात्मा’ इत्युपक्रम्य ‘ अभयं वै जनक
> प्राप्तोऽसि’ (बृ. उ. ४ । २ । ४)
> <
> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Brha?page=4&id=BR_C04_S02_V04&hl=%20%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%AD%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%82%20%E0%A4%B5%E0%A5%88%20%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%95%20%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%BD%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BF
> >
> इत्येवंजातीयकम् । तत्रैतत्सि-द्धं भवति — ब्रह्मप्रकरणे
> सर्वधर्मविशेषरहितब्रह्मदर्शनादेव फलसिद्धौ सत्याम् , यत्तत्राफलं श्रूयते
> ब्रह्मणो जगदाकारपरिणामित्वादि, तद्ब्रह्मदर्शनोपायत्-वेनैव विनियुज्यते,
> फलवत्सन्निधावफलं तदङ्गमितिवत् ; न तु स्वतन्त्रं फलाय कल्प्यत इति ।
>
> In the above discourse we see that Shankara, even though has stated that
> Brahman 'became/transformed' into the jagat in an earlier sutra bhashya
> (आत्मकृतेः परिणामात्), his asserting here that there is no parinama,
> becoming the jagat, for Brahman, the earlier mention of parinama is not in
> the sense of any real transformation but only a case of Brahman appearing
> as the jagat, vivarta.  Shankara has elsewhere denied any parinama even in
> the case of clay, etc. The Chandogya and Manukya karika bhashya-s are the
> references.
>
> Om Tat Sat
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