[Advaita-l] Whether darkness is bhava - Vivarana Prameya Samgraha of Shri Vidyaranya

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

Start with basic questions. When you say darkness the basic question is
where? You cannot say darkness without pointing a place with darkness.
Darkness cannot exist without some Adhishthana. Take darkness on Earth.
When Sun is shining on one half of Earth another half has Darkness. Now in
India it is dark but in another country like USA it is daylight. To remove
darkness on entire Earth we must have another Sun shining in the other
half.

Similarly if a place is big and has a lot of objects to remove darkness
from that place we must have many lights. One light will not be sufficient.

On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:12 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Hari Om Venkataraghavan ji,
>
> I had read your email carefully. Only after that I posed my question
> carefully.
>
> 1. By your response to first query, it appears that you mean that there is
> no hard and fast rule of having the previous knowledge of pratiyogi. You
> would agree that as per you, it is impossible to know the pratiyogi in case
> abhava is defined as ~(A1 & A2.. & An). And yet you contemplate (rightly)
> that it can be known. A contradiction. Is it not?
>
> 2. Darkness is needed to perceive photons? Suppose a monochromatic light of
> wavelength 380 nm is present. And you beam an additional monochromatic
> light of wavelength 700nm. Don't you think that we will be able to see the
> additional light notwithstanding the absence of darkness. Therefore, it
> cannot be a rule that darkness is sine qua non for perception of light.
> Perception of light is due to inherent nature of photons and eyes. Darkness
> does not seem to have any connection therewith as illustrated above.
>
> Regards.
> Sudhanshu.
>
> On Sun 5 May, 2019, 19:15 Venkatraghavan S, <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Namaste Sudhanshu ji,
> > I would suggest you reread that last email I sent. Both your questions
> > have answers there.
> >
> > On Sun, 5 May 2019, 14:23 Sudhanshu Shekhar, <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hari Om Venkataraghavan ji,
> >>
> >> Thanks for your reply. Pl see -- your argument is -- to know an abhAva,
> >> one needs to have prior knowledge of its pratiyogi. If darkness is
> defined
> >> as ~(A1 and A2 .. & ~An), then it's pratiyogi is (A1 & A2 ... & An). The
> >> knowledge of pratiyogi here means previous knowledge of all Aloka
> together.
> >> This is my point and hence no difference can be made in two
> interpretations
> >> of this count so as to reject the possibility of one.
> >>
> > The result of ~(A1 and A2 .. & An)  can be achieved even if A1=0, so
> > there is no need to wait for every Aloka.
> >
> >>
> >> As for photons, yes, let us say a minimum number of photons say x
> between
> >> the range of 380-740 nm which make us feel the existence of visible
> light.
> >> So the argument is -- darkness is mere absence of x or  number of
> photons
> >> of the range 380-740 nm. It is the absence of these photons which is
> named
> >> as darkness. How would it be countered?
> >>
> >
> > Again, has been answered. To perceive those photons you need darkness,
> > without darkness the eyes don't have the capacity to see that level of
> > light.
> >
> > So darkness and light have a mutually contradictory nature, but not of
> the
> > nature of presence and absence of light.
> >
> > Regards
> > Venkatraghavan
> >
> >
> >> Regards.
> >> Sudhanshu.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun 5 May, 2019, 18:17 Venkatraghavan S, <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Namaste
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, 5 May 2019, 11:48 Sudhanshu Shekhar, <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com
> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hari Om Venkataraghavan ji,
> >>>>
> >>>> the defect of impossibility which you raised in (~A1 & ~A2 .. & ~An)
> >>>> namely absence of previous knowledge of all types of Aloka is equally
> >>>> present in ~(A1 & A2 ... & An). Isn't it?
> >>>>
> >>> To know that all Aloka together are not there, you would still need to
> >>>> know all Aloka. So that does not distinguish the case and hence
> should not
> >>>> be a point of rejection.
> >>>>
> >>> No, because even if one light is absent, the condition of sarvAloka
> >>> absence is met if it is defined as ~(A1 & A2 ... & An). So, a candidate
> >>> for the definition exists.
> >>>
> >>> Whereas if sarvAloka absence is defined as ~A1 & ~A2 .. & ~An), a
> >>> candidate for the definition would only emerge if every light was
> absent.
> >>> Such a candidate cannot exist for the reasons outlined previously,
> hence
> >>> the charge of asambhava lakshaNa.
> >>>
> >>> Btw to clarify, I didn't say that one needs to have the absence of
> prior
> >>> knowledge of all types of light to know sarvAloka abhAva (per your
> >>> definition), I said one should have prior knowledge of all types of
> light
> >>> to know sarvAloka abhAva. The absence of knowledge is not knowledge of
> >>> absence.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> My problem is that the interpreted definition of purva paksha as ~(A1
> &
> >>>> A2 ... & An) is downright incorrect because it would entail even
> daytime as
> >>>> darkness. Should we think of purva-paksha as such a silly one as
> posing
> >>>> daytime as darkness and seeking rebuttal?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Not really, because this is primarily meant to refute a false
> >>> extrapolation to a universal rule based on limited observed data.
> >>>
> >>> So while even the frivolous pUrvapakshi is addressed, it is meant to
> >>> refute those situations where people mistake the light sources they
> know as
> >>> all the light there is, and based on the absence of those light
> sources,
> >>> conclude that all light is absent and therefore hold that the nature of
> >>> darkness is the absence of all light.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Further, just explaining my argument a bit more -- if darkness is
> >>>> defined as absence of photons having wavelengths 380 to 740 nm -- how
> would
> >>>> you refute it in line with VPS or for that matter as per any argument
> of
> >>>> Vivarana school. So my argument is -- darkness is not bhava but merely
> >>>> absence of photons having wavelength 380-740 nm. What would be the
> rebuttal.
> >>>>
> >>> A possible rebuttal could be that a single photon is not visible to the
> >>> naked eye, so darkness defined as the absence of a single photon is not
> >>> tenable, wavelength notwithstanding.
> >>>
> >>> What about a group of photons?
> >>>
> >>> In experimental conditions, it was demonstrated that a minimum of 90
> >>> photons have to enter the eye for them to be visible to the naked eye,
> but
> >>> there was a requirement that the room be dark for that amount of light
> to
> >>> be visible.
> >>> (http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Quantum/see_a_photon.html)
> >>>
> >>> Therefore, one could argue that to define darkness as the absence of a
> >>> group of photons (of a wavelength within the visible spectrum) is not
> >>> tenable, because darkness is needed to see that group of photons in the
> >>> first place.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Venkatraghavan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Sudhanshu.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun 5 May, 2019, 15:49 Venkatraghavan S, <agnimile at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Namaste Sudhanshu ji,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, 5 May 2019, 04:47 Sudhanshu Shekhar, <
> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hari Om Venkataraghavan ji,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> No one even thinks of darkness as ~(A1 & A2.. & An). For eg, if
> >>>>>> sunlight is there but torchlight is not there... Who will even
> think of
> >>>>>> this situation as darkness so as to contemplate the definition as
> sarvAloka
> >>>>>> abhAva. A possibility of definition arises only if it makes sense.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> The cognition of darkness as ~(A1 & A2.. & An) is not an
> >>>>> impossibility. It is simply a wrong definition and dismissed as
> such, but
> >>>>> that is different from being an impossibility. It is being mentioned
> >>>>> for completion, in contrast with the other two alternatives, not
> being
> >>>>> offered up as an independent definition of darkness.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In fact, your alternative of  ~A1 and ~A2 and ~A3.... and ~An... is
> >>>>> the actual impossibility here, because how on earth is one supposed
> to be
> >>>>> aware of the absence of every light source in the universe?! Because
> to
> >>>>> know any absence, you need the pratiyogi. So to know the absence of
> every
> >>>>> light, one has to know every light first. So such a cognition cannot
> even
> >>>>> rise.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If sunlight is there but torchlight is not there, clearly there is no
> >>>>>> darkness but there is sarva-Aloka-abhAva.. then who with a sound
> mind will
> >>>>>> pose this situation as darkness and seek its rebuttal.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> A person with an unsound mind will, and it is being so rejected.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Generally we think of darkness as none of the lights present.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> That is, ~A1 and ~A2 and ~A3.... and ~An... Do you think that this
> >>>>>> situation is covered under Aloka-mAtra-abhAva,
> Aloka-vishesha-abhAva or
> >>>>>> sarva-Aloka-abhAva taken by V? If yes, then under which category and
> >>>>>> what would be the rebuttal?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>> Sudhanshu
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No, it is not even mentioned, because even the possibility of such a
> >>>>> buddhi requires the awareness of all absences, which as none of us -
> >>>>> whether of sound or unsound mind - is a sarvajna, is an
> impossibility.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Such a rejection would be aprasakta pratiShedha.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards
> >>>>> Venkatraghavan
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> .
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sun 5 May, 2019, 01:33 Venkatraghavan S, <agnimile at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Namaste Sudhanshu ji,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 6:04 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
> >>>>>>> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> sarvAloka abhAva = Not[L1 And L2....And L(n)]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So a nivRtti of sarvAloka abhAva requires (L1 And L2....And L(n)).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Let us see what it means. As per this meaning, sarvAloka abhAva =
> >>>>>>>> ~L1 OR ~L2 ... OR ~Ln. Does this make sense?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Yes.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Can mere ~L1 mean to be sarvAloka abhAva. Note that since there is
> >>>>>>>> OR, either of them would satisfy as sarvAloka abhAva. That
> obviously cannot
> >>>>>>>> be meant. Can it be?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Yes, that is what is meant here. Even if one light is absent, one
> >>>>>>> would not have sarvAloka (total lights), and as darkness is
> defined in this
> >>>>>>> paksha as the absence of total lights, there would be sarvAloka
> abhAva. The
> >>>>>>> absence of total lights is very different from the absence of any
> light.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That is why if darkness is defined as sarvAloka abhAva, its nivRtti
> >>>>>>> is impossible - sarvAloka abhAva is quite easy to achieve, whereas
> for its
> >>>>>>> nivRtti one literally needs every single light to be present.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Further, what do you reckon as the difference between
> >>>>>>>> aloka-matra-abhava and sarva-aloka-abhava.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>  Aloka mAtra abhAva is the absence of any light. sarvAloka abhAva =
> >>>>>>> absence of total lights.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>> Venkatraghavan
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
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-- 
Regards

-Venkatesh