[Advaita-l] Karma yoga: the kinder, softer preparation for self-inquiry and surrender

[Akilesh Ayyar]

On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 3:20 PM Ven Balakrishnan via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Akilesh
>
> Alternatively, if the jnani continues to see the world, I’m not sure -  in
> the absence of ego, disidentification with the body, and consequential
> desirelessness - what would motivate him to act, apart perhaps from actions
> for 'the benefit of the world' (because for him, there are no others, just
> him).  Because he sees no difference, he cannot logically have ties to his
> body, his family or friends, apart perhaps of those of duty.
>

If the jnani continues to see the world, he sees difference. That's what it
would mean to see the world -- to see difference.

If there is said to be such seeing, which could only be from the ajnana
point of view, then a jnani's actions couldn't be framed by any rule. if
the world is said to appear, then its creator is a jnani, and yet that
creator also manifests all the items in the world, both "good" and "bad,"
and plays all the parts. Maharshi says somewhere -- I can't find the quote
at the moment -- that jnanis may seem to be highly rajasic in some of their
actions, but that cannot be used to judge their inner state.


>
>
>
>
> > On 19 Mar 2021, at 16:09, Akilesh Ayyar via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> > Namaste,
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 10:30 AM Ven Balakrishnan via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Akilesh,
> >>
> >> Two points:
> >>
> >> 1.  If SINCERE mental renunciation has happened, then discussion about
> >> physical renunciation is a moot point.  The likelihood is that with
> mental
> >> desirelessness and renunciation, everything else falls away, unless, as
> >> Bhagan says, one unfortunate prarabdha dictates otherwise.  I’m always
> >> bemused by people implying that mental renunciation is different from
> >> physical - unless one is trying to convince oneself that 'I have
> mentally
> >> renounced and have gained knowledge, and so I can still hang on to my
> >> desires / possessions, because I have renounced (really!)’.  Seems like
> >> self-deception to me, but that is for each to work out.
> >
> >
> > As Ramana mentions in several places, physical sannyasa is also a set of
> > vasanas. Self-deception is equally possible in any ashrama as respects
> > jnana.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Physical without mental is pointless; mental without physical may be
> >> theoretically feasible but if one if being honest.  That seems to me to
> be
> >> the gist of GVK’s verses.
> >>
> >
> > If that were the case, it's surprising, again, that there is *no* mention
> > of physical renunciation at all in Self-Enquiry, Who Am I, Forty Verses
> and
> > Supplement, or Upadesa Saram, and that it contradicts all the recorded
> > statements of Maharshi's to seekers on the question. Maharshi's position
> is
> > that sannyasa is a good thing for those who are suited to it, if that is
> > the way one's karma is oriented, but it is far from necessary for the
> > seeker.
> >
> > Again, in another dialogue recorded in Upadesa Manjari, Maharshi says:
> >
> > *22. Is asceticism (sannyasa) one of the essential requisites for a
> person
> > to become established in the Self (atmanishta)?*
> >
> > *The effort that is made to get rid of attachment to one’s body is really
> > towards abiding in the Self. Maturity of thought and enquiry alone
> removes
> > attachment to the body, not the stations of life (ashramas), such as
> > student (brahmachari), etc. For the attachment is in the mind while the
> > stations pertain to the body. How can bodily stations remove the
> attachment
> > in the mind? As maturity of thought and enquiry pertain to the mind,
> these
> > alone can, by enquiry on the part of the same mind, remove the
> attachments
> > which have crept into it through thoughtlessness. But, as the discipline
> of
> > asceticism (sannyasashrama) is the means for attaining dispassion
> > (vairagya), and as dispassion is the means for enquiry, joining an order
> of
> > ascetics may be regarded, in a way, as a means of enquiry through
> > dispassion. Instead of wasting one’s life by entering the order of
> ascetics
> > before one is fit for it, it is better to live the householder’s life. In
> > order to fix the mind in the Self which is its true nature it is
> necessary
> > to separate it from the family of fancies (sankalpas) and doubts
> > (vikalpas), that is to renounce the family (samsara) in the mind. This is
> > real asceticism.*
> >
> > *23. It is an established rule that so long as there is the least idea of
> > ‘I-am-the-doer,’ Self-knowledge cannot be attained, but is it possible
> for
> > an aspirant who is a householder to discharge his duties properly without
> > this sense?*
> >
> > *As there is no rule that action should depend upon a sense of being the
> > doer it is unnecessary to doubt whether any action will take place
> without
> > a doer or an act of doing. Although the officer of a government treasury
> > may appear, in the eyes of others, to be doing his duty attentively and
> > responsibly all day long, he will be discharging his duties without
> > attachment, thinking ‘I have no real connection with all this money’ and
> > without a sense of involvement in his mind. In the same manner a wise
> > householder may also discharge without attachment the various household
> > duties which fall to his lot according to his past karma, like a tool in
> > the hands of another. Action and knowledge are not obstacles to each
> other.*
> >
> > Here he acknowledges that sannyasa can be a useful tool for those who are
> > fit for it, but again, it is not necessary -- nor even recommended except
> > for those whose nature and karma is bent in that way. Action & knowledge
> > are not opposed.
> >
> > Akilesh Ayyar
> > Spiritual guidance - https://www.siftingtothetruth.com/
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 19 Mar 2021, at 13:38, Akilesh Ayyar via Advaita-l <
> >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Namaste Venkat,
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 6:57 AM Ven Balakrishnan via Advaita-l <
> >>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Apologies, I am joining the discussion late.  But I noted that someone
> >>>> asked where has Ramanamaharishi ever stated that renunciation is
> >> necessary.
> >>>>
> >>>> In Guru Vachaka Kovai, the most authentic collection from his talks,
> >> which
> >>>> he himself proofed:
> >>>>
> >>>> 828: The path of sannyasa is like treading on slippery ground. Even
> if a
> >>>> slip only occurs in the mind, great harm is still sure to result.  It
> is
> >>>> therefore the duty of the person who Is walking on the slippery ground
> >> of
> >>>> sannyaa to ensure, by vigilance, that the perfidious pramada does not
> >> gain
> >>>> clandestine access into his heart.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Yet Maharshi has defined, in this very same book, what sannyasa
> actually
> >>> means.
> >>>
> >>> 162: "He who has destroyed the ego is alone the true Sannyasin, and the
> >>> true Brahmin; but, hard indeed is the complete destruction of the heavy
> >>> burden of the ego borne by those Sannyasins who feel “I belong to the
> >>> highest ashrama” and by those brahmins who feel “I belong to the
> highest
> >>> caste”.
> >>>
> >>> It is not defined by ashrama, it is defined by mindset.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 829: It is impossible for anyone to determine definitively his
> lifespan.
> >>>> Therefore for the jivas who are trying hard to attain the powerful
> >> state of
> >>>> kaivalyam, it is most beneficial to renounce the world without delay,
> at
> >>>> the very moment that aversion to the body and the world arises.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Maharshi has defined in this same book the real meaning of
> renunciation,
> >>> too.
> >>>
> >>> 840: "Know that, rather than one’s thinking in the heart ‘I have
> >> renounced
> >>> everything’, one’s not thinking ‘I am limited to the measure of the
> body,
> >>> and I am caught in the mean bondage of family life’, is a superior
> >>> renunciation."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 830: Just as a ripened fruit separates effortlessly from the tree and
> >>>> falls, when a sadhaka who is aiming to merge his mind in the supreme
> >>>> attains maturity, he will definitely renounce family life as unsalted
> >> gruel
> >>>> unless his unfavourable prarabdha stands in the way
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> "...*unless his unfavourable prarabhda stands in the way*." Meaning
> >>>
> >>> a) it will not necessarily happen, even for the most sincere seekers
> >>> and
> >>> b) it is not required for realization
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 831: Only those who have extricated themselves from the multitude of
> >>>> things that, like a dream, appear within them, by regarding those
> >> things as
> >>>> mere imagination, will root out the deception, the illusory
> corruption.
> >>>> None of the others willl know the means to put an end to that
> >> corruption.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> And 837: "For those who have made the rarest renunciation, that of the
> >> ego,
> >>> nothing remains to be renounced."
> >>>
> >>> Again, the real renunciation is the mind.
> >>>
> >>> Look at all of Maharshi's other texts: his 40 verses and supplement,
> his
> >>> upadesa saram, and all of his many talks, and you will find the views
> >> there
> >>> consistent with what I have said.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> And he goes on with further verses.
> >>>>
> >>>> For Ramanamaharishi, who viewed the world as entirely unreal,
> >> renunciation
> >>>> would natural - like a ripe fruit falling - as understanding
> >> accumulated.
> >>>> However for him, there was no point in mere physical renunciation
> >> without
> >>>> mental renunciation as well.  Hence if someone had to ask whether to
> >>>> renounce, then the mere fact of asking showed that s/he was not ready
> >> for
> >>>> renunciation - so why confuse or add to the mental burden of such a
> >>>> seeker.  And as Krishna notes in BG, only the very rare seeker attains
> >>>> jnana - hence for the majority of us, we still have to perform
> sadhanas
> >> as
> >>>> best as possible . . . until we are ready.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> That's a distortion of Maharshi's views. Maharshi would say what was
> true
> >>> if someone asked him directly. People asked him if being vegetarian was
> >>> good. He responded that it was. People asked him if inquiry was good --
> >> he
> >>> would say that it was, whether or not they were "qualified" to do it
> per
> >>> "traditional" advaita guidelines.
> >>>
> >>> Maharshi didn't lie about his positions for the so-called "benefit" of
> >> the
> >>> seeker when asked directly. And he was asked directly about physical
> >>> sannyasa several times, and responded in each case in the same way,
> that
> >> it
> >>> was not necessary, that the mental thing was what was essential.
> >>>
> >>> Akilesh
> >>> Spiritual guidance - https://www.siftingtothetruth.com/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> venkat
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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