[Advaita-l] Karma yoga: the kinder, softer preparation for self-inquiry and surrender

[Ven Balakrishnan]

Akilesh

Let's back to basics.

Ramana’s teaching can be summarised as:

1) The ‘I’- thought arises between consciousness and the insentient body
2) The world is a projection of the ‘I’ thought - drsti-srsti vada
3) The I-thought grows in strength the more that it is attached to world objects
4) Therefore the path to realisation is self-enquiry / self-surrender - which is turning away from thoughts (and the desires for objects that stimulates thoughts) and focusing on the ‘I’-thought until it dies.  So desirelessness is a pre-requisite to his mauna, thought-free state, the death of the ego.
5) The death of the I-thought, for Bhagavan could be interpreted to mean:
	(a) The world projection ends
	(b) The world appearance continues, but is like a mirage in a desert - seen but not taken to be real.  He also uses the analogy of a burnt rope in GVK.  To the extent that it is seen, yes differences are ’seen’ like a foot or a hand, but there is no inner thought that says ‘me’ or ‘mine’.

Please let me know which of the above premises you disagree with, and then we have a solid ground for debate.



> On 19 Mar 2021, at 20:16, Akilesh Ayyar via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 3:20 PM Ven Balakrishnan via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> 
>> Akilesh
>> 
>> Alternatively, if the jnani continues to see the world, I’m not sure -  in
>> the absence of ego, disidentification with the body, and consequential
>> desirelessness - what would motivate him to act, apart perhaps from actions
>> for 'the benefit of the world' (because for him, there are no others, just
>> him).  Because he sees no difference, he cannot logically have ties to his
>> body, his family or friends, apart perhaps of those of duty.
>> 
> 
> If the jnani continues to see the world, he sees difference. That's what it
> would mean to see the world -- to see difference.
> 
> If there is said to be such seeing, which could only be from the ajnana
> point of view, then a jnani's actions couldn't be framed by any rule. if
> the world is said to appear, then its creator is a jnani, and yet that
> creator also manifests all the items in the world, both "good" and "bad,"
> and plays all the parts. Maharshi says somewhere -- I can't find the quote
> at the moment -- that jnanis may seem to be highly rajasic in some of their
> actions, but that cannot be used to judge their inner state.
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 19 Mar 2021, at 16:09, Akilesh Ayyar via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Namaste,
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 10:30 AM Ven Balakrishnan via Advaita-l <
>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Akilesh,
>>>> 
>>>> Two points:
>>>> 
>>>> 1.  If SINCERE mental renunciation has happened, then discussion about
>>>> physical renunciation is a moot point.  The likelihood is that with
>> mental
>>>> desirelessness and renunciation, everything else falls away, unless, as
>>>> Bhagan says, one unfortunate prarabdha dictates otherwise.  I’m always
>>>> bemused by people implying that mental renunciation is different from
>>>> physical - unless one is trying to convince oneself that 'I have
>> mentally
>>>> renounced and have gained knowledge, and so I can still hang on to my
>>>> desires / possessions, because I have renounced (really!)’.  Seems like
>>>> self-deception to me, but that is for each to work out.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> As Ramana mentions in several places, physical sannyasa is also a set of
>>> vasanas. Self-deception is equally possible in any ashrama as respects
>>> jnana.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Physical without mental is pointless; mental without physical may be
>>>> theoretically feasible but if one if being honest.  That seems to me to
>> be
>>>> the gist of GVK’s verses.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> If that were the case, it's surprising, again, that there is *no* mention
>>> of physical renunciation at all in Self-Enquiry, Who Am I, Forty Verses
>> and
>>> Supplement, or Upadesa Saram, and that it contradicts all the recorded
>>> statements of Maharshi's to seekers on the question. Maharshi's position
>> is
>>> that sannyasa is a good thing for those who are suited to it, if that is
>>> the way one's karma is oriented, but it is far from necessary for the
>>> seeker.
>>> 
>>> Again, in another dialogue recorded in Upadesa Manjari, Maharshi says:
>>> 
>>> *22. Is asceticism (sannyasa) one of the essential requisites for a
>> person
>>> to become established in the Self (atmanishta)?*
>>> 
>>> *The effort that is made to get rid of attachment to one’s body is really
>>> towards abiding in the Self. Maturity of thought and enquiry alone
>> removes
>>> attachment to the body, not the stations of life (ashramas), such as
>>> student (brahmachari), etc. For the attachment is in the mind while the
>>> stations pertain to the body. How can bodily stations remove the
>> attachment
>>> in the mind? As maturity of thought and enquiry pertain to the mind,
>> these
>>> alone can, by enquiry on the part of the same mind, remove the
>> attachments
>>> which have crept into it through thoughtlessness. But, as the discipline
>> of
>>> asceticism (sannyasashrama) is the means for attaining dispassion
>>> (vairagya), and as dispassion is the means for enquiry, joining an order
>> of
>>> ascetics may be regarded, in a way, as a means of enquiry through
>>> dispassion. Instead of wasting one’s life by entering the order of
>> ascetics
>>> before one is fit for it, it is better to live the householder’s life. In
>>> order to fix the mind in the Self which is its true nature it is
>> necessary
>>> to separate it from the family of fancies (sankalpas) and doubts
>>> (vikalpas), that is to renounce the family (samsara) in the mind. This is
>>> real asceticism.*
>>> 
>>> *23. It is an established rule that so long as there is the least idea of
>>> ‘I-am-the-doer,’ Self-knowledge cannot be attained, but is it possible
>> for
>>> an aspirant who is a householder to discharge his duties properly without
>>> this sense?*
>>> 
>>> *As there is no rule that action should depend upon a sense of being the
>>> doer it is unnecessary to doubt whether any action will take place
>> without
>>> a doer or an act of doing. Although the officer of a government treasury
>>> may appear, in the eyes of others, to be doing his duty attentively and
>>> responsibly all day long, he will be discharging his duties without
>>> attachment, thinking ‘I have no real connection with all this money’ and
>>> without a sense of involvement in his mind. In the same manner a wise
>>> householder may also discharge without attachment the various household
>>> duties which fall to his lot according to his past karma, like a tool in
>>> the hands of another. Action and knowledge are not obstacles to each
>> other.*
>>> 
>>> Here he acknowledges that sannyasa can be a useful tool for those who are
>>> fit for it, but again, it is not necessary -- nor even recommended except
>>> for those whose nature and karma is bent in that way. Action & knowledge
>>> are not opposed.
>>> 
>>> Akilesh Ayyar
>>> Spiritual guidance - https://www.siftingtothetruth.com/
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 19 Mar 2021, at 13:38, Akilesh Ayyar via Advaita-l <
>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Namaste Venkat,
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 6:57 AM Ven Balakrishnan via Advaita-l <
>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Apologies, I am joining the discussion late.  But I noted that someone
>>>>>> asked where has Ramanamaharishi ever stated that renunciation is
>>>> necessary.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In Guru Vachaka Kovai, the most authentic collection from his talks,
>>>> which
>>>>>> he himself proofed:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 828: The path of sannyasa is like treading on slippery ground. Even
>> if a
>>>>>> slip only occurs in the mind, great harm is still sure to result.  It
>> is
>>>>>> therefore the duty of the person who Is walking on the slippery ground
>>>> of
>>>>>> sannyaa to ensure, by vigilance, that the perfidious pramada does not
>>>> gain
>>>>>> clandestine access into his heart.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yet Maharshi has defined, in this very same book, what sannyasa
>> actually
>>>>> means.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 162: "He who has destroyed the ego is alone the true Sannyasin, and the
>>>>> true Brahmin; but, hard indeed is the complete destruction of the heavy
>>>>> burden of the ego borne by those Sannyasins who feel “I belong to the
>>>>> highest ashrama” and by those brahmins who feel “I belong to the
>> highest
>>>>> caste”.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It is not defined by ashrama, it is defined by mindset.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 829: It is impossible for anyone to determine definitively his
>> lifespan.
>>>>>> Therefore for the jivas who are trying hard to attain the powerful
>>>> state of
>>>>>> kaivalyam, it is most beneficial to renounce the world without delay,
>> at
>>>>>> the very moment that aversion to the body and the world arises.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Maharshi has defined in this same book the real meaning of
>> renunciation,
>>>>> too.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 840: "Know that, rather than one’s thinking in the heart ‘I have
>>>> renounced
>>>>> everything’, one’s not thinking ‘I am limited to the measure of the
>> body,
>>>>> and I am caught in the mean bondage of family life’, is a superior
>>>>> renunciation."
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 830: Just as a ripened fruit separates effortlessly from the tree and
>>>>>> falls, when a sadhaka who is aiming to merge his mind in the supreme
>>>>>> attains maturity, he will definitely renounce family life as unsalted
>>>> gruel
>>>>>> unless his unfavourable prarabdha stands in the way
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "...*unless his unfavourable prarabhda stands in the way*." Meaning
>>>>> 
>>>>> a) it will not necessarily happen, even for the most sincere seekers
>>>>> and
>>>>> b) it is not required for realization
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 831: Only those who have extricated themselves from the multitude of
>>>>>> things that, like a dream, appear within them, by regarding those
>>>> things as
>>>>>> mere imagination, will root out the deception, the illusory
>> corruption.
>>>>>> None of the others willl know the means to put an end to that
>>>> corruption.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> And 837: "For those who have made the rarest renunciation, that of the
>>>> ego,
>>>>> nothing remains to be renounced."
>>>>> 
>>>>> Again, the real renunciation is the mind.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Look at all of Maharshi's other texts: his 40 verses and supplement,
>> his
>>>>> upadesa saram, and all of his many talks, and you will find the views
>>>> there
>>>>> consistent with what I have said.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And he goes on with further verses.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For Ramanamaharishi, who viewed the world as entirely unreal,
>>>> renunciation
>>>>>> would natural - like a ripe fruit falling - as understanding
>>>> accumulated.
>>>>>> However for him, there was no point in mere physical renunciation
>>>> without
>>>>>> mental renunciation as well.  Hence if someone had to ask whether to
>>>>>> renounce, then the mere fact of asking showed that s/he was not ready
>>>> for
>>>>>> renunciation - so why confuse or add to the mental burden of such a
>>>>>> seeker.  And as Krishna notes in BG, only the very rare seeker attains
>>>>>> jnana - hence for the majority of us, we still have to perform
>> sadhanas
>>>> as
>>>>>> best as possible . . . until we are ready.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> That's a distortion of Maharshi's views. Maharshi would say what was
>> true
>>>>> if someone asked him directly. People asked him if being vegetarian was
>>>>> good. He responded that it was. People asked him if inquiry was good --
>>>> he
>>>>> would say that it was, whether or not they were "qualified" to do it
>> per
>>>>> "traditional" advaita guidelines.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Maharshi didn't lie about his positions for the so-called "benefit" of
>>>> the
>>>>> seeker when asked directly. And he was asked directly about physical
>>>>> sannyasa several times, and responded in each case in the same way,
>> that
>>>> it
>>>>> was not necessary, that the mental thing was what was essential.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Akilesh
>>>>> Spiritual guidance - https://www.siftingtothetruth.com/
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> venkat
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>>>>>> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> To unsubscribe or change your options:
>>>>>> https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For assistance, contact:
>>>>>> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>> ᐧ
>>>>> ᐧ
>>>>> ᐧ
>>>>> ᐧ
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>>>>> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>>>>> 
>>>>> To unsubscribe or change your options:
>>>>> https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>>>> 
>>>>> For assistance, contact:
>>>>> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>>>> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>>>> 
>>>> To unsubscribe or change your options:
>>>> https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>>> 
>>>> For assistance, contact:
>>>> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>>> 
>>> ᐧ
>>> ᐧ
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>>> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>>> 
>>> To unsubscribe or change your options:
>>> https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>> 
>>> For assistance, contact:
>>> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>> 
>> To unsubscribe or change your options:
>> https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>> 
>> For assistance, contact:
>> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>> 
> ᐧ
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> 
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> 
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org