[Advaita-l] Karma yoga: the kinder, softer preparation for self-inquiry and surrender

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Venkat Ji,

Without  interjecting into your debate with Akhilesh Ji, thought I could
seek some clarifications from you.

Reg  << The world is a projection of the ‘I’ thought - drsti-srsti vada >>,

Two definitions are adopted for DSV.  <<  दृष्टिसमकालीनसृष्टि >>  and  <<
दृष्टिरेवसृष्टि  >>. Which is the one adopted by The Maharshi?  Can you
please give a link reference to any elaboration by the Maharshi on his
concept of DSV.

Reg  << Therefore the path to realisation is self-enquiry / self-surrender
- which is turning away from thoughts (and the desires for objects that
stimulates thoughts) and focusing on the ‘I’-thought until it dies >>.

Are any practices or methods prescribed by the Maharshi for undertaking
this self-enquiry? In  the sense any studies or meditation by oneself or
under guidance by a Guru etc. The reason why I am asking is that great
Maharshis like Gautama,KaNAda,Patanjali,Jaimini,Kapila etc have
independently  comeup with different  solutions for Realization. But none
of them have been accepted in Advaita Sidhanta advanced by Sri
Bhagavatpada. In fact the Yoga Shastra of Sri Patanjali prescribes
practically the same as what you have brought out above in respect of the
Maharshi. But Yoga Shastra prescribes detailed procedures to be adopted.
Regards

On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 2:42 AM Ven Balakrishnan via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Akilesh
>
> Let's back to basics.
>
> Ramana’s teaching can be summarised as:
>
> 1) The ‘I’- thought arises between consciousness and the insentient body
> 2) The world is a projection of the ‘I’ thought - drsti-srsti vada
> 3) The I-thought grows in strength the more that it is attached to world
> objects
> 4) Therefore the path to realisation is self-enquiry / self-surrender -
> which is turning away from thoughts (and the desires for objects that
> stimulates thoughts) and focusing on the ‘I’-thought until it dies.  So
> desirelessness is a pre-requisite to his mauna, thought-free state, the
> death of the ego.
> 5) The death of the I-thought, for Bhagavan could be interpreted to mean:
>         (a) The world projection ends
>         (b) The world appearance continues, but is like a mirage in a
> desert - seen but not taken to be real.  He also uses the analogy of a
> burnt rope in GVK.  To the extent that it is seen, yes differences are
> ’seen’ like a foot or a hand, but there is no inner thought that says ‘me’
> or ‘mine’.
>
> Please let me know which of the above premises you disagree with, and then
> we have a solid ground for debate.
>
>
>
> > On 19 Mar 2021, at 20:16, Akilesh Ayyar via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 3:20 PM Ven Balakrishnan via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Akilesh
> >>
> >> Alternatively, if the jnani continues to see the world, I’m not sure -
> in
> >> the absence of ego, disidentification with the body, and consequential
> >> desirelessness - what would motivate him to act, apart perhaps from
> actions
> >> for 'the benefit of the world' (because for him, there are no others,
> just
> >> him).  Because he sees no difference, he cannot logically have ties to
> his
> >> body, his family or friends, apart perhaps of those of duty.
> >>
> >
> > If the jnani continues to see the world, he sees difference. That's what
> it
> > would mean to see the world -- to see difference.
> >
> > If there is said to be such seeing, which could only be from the ajnana
> > point of view, then a jnani's actions couldn't be framed by any rule. if
> > the world is said to appear, then its creator is a jnani, and yet that
> > creator also manifests all the items in the world, both "good" and "bad,"
> > and plays all the parts. Maharshi says somewhere -- I can't find the
> quote
> > at the moment -- that jnanis may seem to be highly rajasic in some of
> their
> > actions, but that cannot be used to judge their inner state.
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 19 Mar 2021, at 16:09, Akilesh Ayyar via Advaita-l <
> >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Namaste,
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 10:30 AM Ven Balakrishnan via Advaita-l <
> >>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Akilesh,
> >>>>
> >>>> Two points:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1.  If SINCERE mental renunciation has happened, then discussion about
> >>>> physical renunciation is a moot point.  The likelihood is that with
> >> mental
> >>>> desirelessness and renunciation, everything else falls away, unless,
> as
> >>>> Bhagan says, one unfortunate prarabdha dictates otherwise.  I’m always
> >>>> bemused by people implying that mental renunciation is different from
> >>>> physical - unless one is trying to convince oneself that 'I have
> >> mentally
> >>>> renounced and have gained knowledge, and so I can still hang on to my
> >>>> desires / possessions, because I have renounced (really!)’.  Seems
> like
> >>>> self-deception to me, but that is for each to work out.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> As Ramana mentions in several places, physical sannyasa is also a set
> of
> >>> vasanas. Self-deception is equally possible in any ashrama as respects
> >>> jnana.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Physical without mental is pointless; mental without physical may be
> >>>> theoretically feasible but if one if being honest.  That seems to me
> to
> >> be
> >>>> the gist of GVK’s verses.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> If that were the case, it's surprising, again, that there is *no*
> mention
> >>> of physical renunciation at all in Self-Enquiry, Who Am I, Forty Verses
> >> and
> >>> Supplement, or Upadesa Saram, and that it contradicts all the recorded
> >>> statements of Maharshi's to seekers on the question. Maharshi's
> position
> >> is
> >>> that sannyasa is a good thing for those who are suited to it, if that
> is
> >>> the way one's karma is oriented, but it is far from necessary for the
> >>> seeker.
> >>>
> >>> Again, in another dialogue recorded in Upadesa Manjari, Maharshi says:
> >>>
> >>> *22. Is asceticism (sannyasa) one of the essential requisites for a
> >> person
> >>> to become established in the Self (atmanishta)?*
> >>>
> >>> *The effort that is made to get rid of attachment to one’s body is
> really
> >>> towards abiding in the Self. Maturity of thought and enquiry alone
> >> removes
> >>> attachment to the body, not the stations of life (ashramas), such as
> >>> student (brahmachari), etc. For the attachment is in the mind while the
> >>> stations pertain to the body. How can bodily stations remove the
> >> attachment
> >>> in the mind? As maturity of thought and enquiry pertain to the mind,
> >> these
> >>> alone can, by enquiry on the part of the same mind, remove the
> >> attachments
> >>> which have crept into it through thoughtlessness. But, as the
> discipline
> >> of
> >>> asceticism (sannyasashrama) is the means for attaining dispassion
> >>> (vairagya), and as dispassion is the means for enquiry, joining an
> order
> >> of
> >>> ascetics may be regarded, in a way, as a means of enquiry through
> >>> dispassion. Instead of wasting one’s life by entering the order of
> >> ascetics
> >>> before one is fit for it, it is better to live the householder’s life.
> In
> >>> order to fix the mind in the Self which is its true nature it is
> >> necessary
> >>> to separate it from the family of fancies (sankalpas) and doubts
> >>> (vikalpas), that is to renounce the family (samsara) in the mind. This
> is
> >>> real asceticism.*
> >>>
> >>> *23. It is an established rule that so long as there is the least idea
> of
> >>> ‘I-am-the-doer,’ Self-knowledge cannot be attained, but is it possible
> >> for
> >>> an aspirant who is a householder to discharge his duties properly
> without
> >>> this sense?*
> >>>
> >>> *As there is no rule that action should depend upon a sense of being
> the
> >>> doer it is unnecessary to doubt whether any action will take place
> >> without
> >>> a doer or an act of doing. Although the officer of a government
> treasury
> >>> may appear, in the eyes of others, to be doing his duty attentively and
> >>> responsibly all day long, he will be discharging his duties without
> >>> attachment, thinking ‘I have no real connection with all this money’
> and
> >>> without a sense of involvement in his mind. In the same manner a wise
> >>> householder may also discharge without attachment the various household
> >>> duties which fall to his lot according to his past karma, like a tool
> in
> >>> the hands of another. Action and knowledge are not obstacles to each
> >> other.*
> >>>
> >>> Here he acknowledges that sannyasa can be a useful tool for those who
> are
> >>> fit for it, but again, it is not necessary -- nor even recommended
> except
> >>> for those whose nature and karma is bent in that way. Action &
> knowledge
> >>> are not opposed.
> >>>
> >>> Akilesh Ayyar
> >>> Spiritual guidance - https://www.siftingtothetruth.com/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 19 Mar 2021, at 13:38, Akilesh Ayyar via Advaita-l <
> >>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Namaste Venkat,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 6:57 AM Ven Balakrishnan via Advaita-l <
> >>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Apologies, I am joining the discussion late.  But I noted that
> someone
> >>>>>> asked where has Ramanamaharishi ever stated that renunciation is
> >>>> necessary.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In Guru Vachaka Kovai, the most authentic collection from his talks,
> >>>> which
> >>>>>> he himself proofed:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 828: The path of sannyasa is like treading on slippery ground. Even
> >> if a
> >>>>>> slip only occurs in the mind, great harm is still sure to result.
> It
> >> is
> >>>>>> therefore the duty of the person who Is walking on the slippery
> ground
> >>>> of
> >>>>>> sannyaa to ensure, by vigilance, that the perfidious pramada does
> not
> >>>> gain
> >>>>>> clandestine access into his heart.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yet Maharshi has defined, in this very same book, what sannyasa
> >> actually
> >>>>> means.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 162: "He who has destroyed the ego is alone the true Sannyasin, and
> the
> >>>>> true Brahmin; but, hard indeed is the complete destruction of the
> heavy
> >>>>> burden of the ego borne by those Sannyasins who feel “I belong to the
> >>>>> highest ashrama” and by those brahmins who feel “I belong to the
> >> highest
> >>>>> caste”.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It is not defined by ashrama, it is defined by mindset.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 829: It is impossible for anyone to determine definitively his
> >> lifespan.
> >>>>>> Therefore for the jivas who are trying hard to attain the powerful
> >>>> state of
> >>>>>> kaivalyam, it is most beneficial to renounce the world without
> delay,
> >> at
> >>>>>> the very moment that aversion to the body and the world arises.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Maharshi has defined in this same book the real meaning of
> >> renunciation,
> >>>>> too.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 840: "Know that, rather than one’s thinking in the heart ‘I have
> >>>> renounced
> >>>>> everything’, one’s not thinking ‘I am limited to the measure of the
> >> body,
> >>>>> and I am caught in the mean bondage of family life’, is a superior
> >>>>> renunciation."
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 830: Just as a ripened fruit separates effortlessly from the tree
> and
> >>>>>> falls, when a sadhaka who is aiming to merge his mind in the supreme
> >>>>>> attains maturity, he will definitely renounce family life as
> unsalted
> >>>> gruel
> >>>>>> unless his unfavourable prarabdha stands in the way
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "...*unless his unfavourable prarabhda stands in the way*." Meaning
> >>>>>
> >>>>> a) it will not necessarily happen, even for the most sincere seekers
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> b) it is not required for realization
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 831: Only those who have extricated themselves from the multitude of
> >>>>>> things that, like a dream, appear within them, by regarding those
> >>>> things as
> >>>>>> mere imagination, will root out the deception, the illusory
> >> corruption.
> >>>>>> None of the others willl know the means to put an end to that
> >>>> corruption.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And 837: "For those who have made the rarest renunciation, that of
> the
> >>>> ego,
> >>>>> nothing remains to be renounced."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Again, the real renunciation is the mind.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Look at all of Maharshi's other texts: his 40 verses and supplement,
> >> his
> >>>>> upadesa saram, and all of his many talks, and you will find the views
> >>>> there
> >>>>> consistent with what I have said.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And he goes on with further verses.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> For Ramanamaharishi, who viewed the world as entirely unreal,
> >>>> renunciation
> >>>>>> would natural - like a ripe fruit falling - as understanding
> >>>> accumulated.
> >>>>>> However for him, there was no point in mere physical renunciation
> >>>> without
> >>>>>> mental renunciation as well.  Hence if someone had to ask whether to
> >>>>>> renounce, then the mere fact of asking showed that s/he was not
> ready
> >>>> for
> >>>>>> renunciation - so why confuse or add to the mental burden of such a
> >>>>>> seeker.  And as Krishna notes in BG, only the very rare seeker
> attains
> >>>>>> jnana - hence for the majority of us, we still have to perform
> >> sadhanas
> >>>> as
> >>>>>> best as possible . . . until we are ready.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's a distortion of Maharshi's views. Maharshi would say what was
> >> true
> >>>>> if someone asked him directly. People asked him if being vegetarian
> was
> >>>>> good. He responded that it was. People asked him if inquiry was good
> --
> >>>> he
> >>>>> would say that it was, whether or not they were "qualified" to do it
> >> per
> >>>>> "traditional" advaita guidelines.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Maharshi didn't lie about his positions for the so-called "benefit"
> of
> >>>> the
> >>>>> seeker when asked directly. And he was asked directly about physical
> >>>>> sannyasa several times, and responded in each case in the same way,
> >> that
> >>>> it
> >>>>> was not necessary, that the mental thing was what was essential.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Akilesh
> >>>>> Spiritual guidance - https://www.siftingtothetruth.com/
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> venkat
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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