[Advaita-l] Perception in lightning

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

Namaste Venkatraghavan ji
While my thinking too is very similar to what you write, i heard an
objection along the following lines the objection that we (advaitins) too
are falling in to the trap of 'representationalism'.

 In other words, since the viShayAvacchinna chaitanyam and vRttyavacchinna
chaitanyam never actually coincide to if we take VP literally (only
prabhAvavacchinna chaitanyam as you put it and vRttyavacchinna chaitanyam
coincide), we can never get veridical perception (pramA) of the distant
object, we only recreate an unreliable image/representation of it in our
mind. The knowledge of the object-in-itself cannot arise in this
prabhava-mediated pratyaxa prama.
There is no way to prove that such a prabhaav based prama is ever free from
error. In contrast the orthodox VP position is to ensure prAmANyam by
positing atleast the possibility that there can be coincidence of
vishayAvacvhinna and extended mind based vRttyavacchinna-chaitanyam.

My response to the above would be to examine the meaning of the word
viShaya and whether it exists apart from its sensory prabhAvas etc.


Om
Raghav





On Tue, 11 May, 2021, 2:00 pm Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l, <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Some minor typos in paragraph 3 below.
>
> Thus, the viShaya adhiShThAna chaitanya can still be the prakAshaka, there
> is difference between paroksha and pratyaksha on account of the prabhA /
> shabda making contact with the eyes */ ears*, there is *the possibility*
> for bhrama because of ajnAna in the viShaya (light/sound) avacChinna
> chaitanya.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 11 May 2021, 08:50 Venkatraghavan S, <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Namaste
> > I was going to suggest this well. The object that is perceived is not the
> > physical object itself but light / sound emanating from it.
> >
> > Thus without needing the postulation of the mind to move towards a
> > physical object elsewhere, one could postulate that the light / sound
> > itself is the viShaya. Thus all the terms related to viShayAvacChinna
> > chaitanya can be recast to mean prabhAvacChinna chaitanya /
> shabdAvacChinna
> > chaitanya etc.
> >
> > Thus, the viShaya adhiShThAna chaitanya can still be the prakAshaka,
> there
> > is difference between paroksha and pratyaksha on account of the prabhA /
> > shabda making contact with the eyes, there is possible for bhrama because
> > of ajnAna in the viShaya (light/sound) avacChinna chaitanya.
> >
> > And as Sri Chandramouli says, this aligns with the anubhava of not
> > experiencing the exact quantum of distance in the perception of sound and
> > light even when one knows in general that it is far / near.
> >
> > That is simpler I feel and requires less items to postulate such as the
> > mind being able to travel back in time to see distant galaxies etc. While
> > it may be true for yogis, to say that everyone does that naturally does
> not
> > sit well.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Venkatraghavan
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 11 May 2021, 08:17 H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l, <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Namaste.
> >>
> >> The following could perhaps form the basis for a resolution of the
> issue.
> >>
> >> What is cognized through vision is the rUpa (color) of the Vishaya. It
> >> could be considered as the light enveloping the object or emanating from
> >> it
> >> (in the case of lightning for example) as the case may be. While ‘being
> >>  distant’ is also perceived in the cognition, the actual location is not
> >> when the distance is large. Same with shabda or sound. While the sound
> is
> >> cognized as well as it being ‘distant’, exact distance is not involved
> in
> >> the cognition.
> >>
> >> We can now consider ‘where’  the cognition takes place when all the
> three
> >> involved in the cognition; namely antahkarana vritti,rUpa or light
> >> enveloping/emnating from the object, and shabda or sound emanating from
> >> the
> >> object;  all three are in motion, and the distances between the objects
> >> and
> >> the experience are large.The location where visual cognition takes place
> >> can be considered as the location where the rUpa or light enveloping the
> >> object or emanating from it is coincident with the antahkarana vritti
> >> issuing forth through the eyes. Similarly for the cognition of sound.
> >> These
> >> locations need not be the same as their origin. When distances involved
> >> are
> >> negligible compared to their speeds, location of cognition will be
> >> practically the same as the object. When distances are large, they could
> >> be
> >> quite different.
> >>
> >> This explains the reason for cognition taking place at different times
> in
> >> case of lightning and thunder for example. This would also cover
> anomalies
> >> in respect of cognition of very distant stars/planets etc.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Chandramouli
> >>
> >>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
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