[Advaita-l] Perception in lightning

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Raghav Ji,

This was posted in a lighter vein. Ignore it. Lot more messages have been
exchanged since clarifying the position. Please refer to them and if there
are any more queries, we could discuss.

Regards

Chandramouli

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On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 7:36 PM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste Chandramouliji
>
>
>
> On Tue, 11 May, 2021, 3:50 pm H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l, <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Namaste.
> >
> > It could be that this simple fact was being missed out over decades
> during
> > debates to account for observable scientific phenomena !!!!
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Chandramouli
> >
>
> By simple fact do you mean the fact that viShaya should be understood as
> rupa/shabda and not the object like ghaTa etc?
>
> I sometimes get the mails out of sequence so making sure I get what you are
> saying.
>
> >
> > <
> >
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> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >
> > On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 3:19 PM H S Chandramouli <
> hschandramouli at gmail.com
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > This only clarifies that no epistemological changes are called for
> while
> > > accounting for observable scientific phenomena
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Chandramouli
> > >
> > >
> > > <
> >
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> > > <#m_1695058044720073329_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> > >
> > > On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 3:16 PM H S Chandramouli <
> > hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Namaste.
> > >>
> > >> The current position is that vishaya for the sense organs are rUpa and
> > >> shabda only. For ease of understanding perhaps,  they are referred to
> in
> > >> texts like VP as objects. Hence no change is required. That is what I
> > >> meant. Only proper understanding is needed.
> > >>
> > >> Regards
> > >>
> > >> Chandramouli
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> <
> >
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> > >>
> >
> <#m_1695058044720073329_m_5665423483376934482_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 3:05 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Namaste
> > >>> It is not to account for exceptions per se. The idea is to preserve
> as
> > >>> much of the advaita epistemological framework as possible, while
> > accounting
> > >>> for observable scientific phenomena.
> > >>>
> > >>> That being the case, what was suggested is that if we change the
> > concept
> > >>> of what constitutes a viShaya to the subject (the object is not the
> > >>> viShaya, light / sound is), one can preserve the existing framework
> > while
> > >>> addressing the challenge of viewing objects that have ceased to
> exist.
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards,
> > >>> Venkatraghavan
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, 11 May 2021, 09:47 H S Chandramouli, <
> hschandramouli at gmail.com
> > >
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Namaste.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Reg  << Thus all the terms related to viShayAvacChinna chaitanya can
> > >>>> be recast to mean prabhAvacChinna chaitanya / shabdAvacChinna
> > chaitanya etc
> > >>>> >>,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> There is perhaps no need to recast anything. The present rendering
> > >>>> covers practically all the commonly  met with experiences. We are
> > perhaps
> > >>>> considering exceptions. Hence a general reference to what has been
> > >>>> clarified would  be enough to cover such exceptions
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regards
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Chandramouli.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> <
> >
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> > >>>>
> >
> <#m_1695058044720073329_m_5665423483376934482_m_-2873140088161445427_m_-7682390552209184207_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:22 PM Venkatraghavan S <
> agnimile at gmail.com>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Namaste
> > >>>>> I was going to suggest this well. The object that is perceived is
> not
> > >>>>> the physical object itself but light / sound emanating from it.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thus without needing the postulation of the mind to move towards a
> > >>>>> physical object elsewhere, one could postulate that the light /
> sound
> > >>>>> itself is the viShaya. Thus all the terms related to
> viShayAvacChinna
> > >>>>> chaitanya can be recast to mean prabhAvacChinna chaitanya /
> > shabdAvacChinna
> > >>>>> chaitanya etc.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thus, the viShaya adhiShThAna chaitanya can still be the
> prakAshaka,
> > >>>>> there is difference between paroksha and pratyaksha on account of
> the
> > >>>>> prabhA / shabda making contact with the eyes, there is possible for
> > bhrama
> > >>>>> because of ajnAna in the viShaya (light/sound) avacChinna
> chaitanya.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> And as Sri Chandramouli says, this aligns with the anubhava of not
> > >>>>> experiencing the exact quantum of distance in the perception of
> > sound and
> > >>>>> light even when one knows in general that it is far / near.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> That is simpler I feel and requires less items to postulate such as
> > >>>>> the mind being able to travel back in time to see distant galaxies
> > etc.
> > >>>>> While it may be true for yogis, to say that everyone does that
> > naturally
> > >>>>> does not sit well.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Regards,
> > >>>>> Venkatraghavan
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Tue, 11 May 2021, 08:17 H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l, <
> > >>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Namaste.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> The following could perhaps form the basis for a resolution of the
> > >>>>>> issue.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> What is cognized through vision is the rUpa (color) of the
> Vishaya.
> > It
> > >>>>>> could be considered as the light enveloping the object or
> emanating
> > >>>>>> from it
> > >>>>>> (in the case of lightning for example) as the case may be. While
> > >>>>>> ‘being
> > >>>>>>  distant’ is also perceived in the cognition, the actual location
> is
> > >>>>>> not
> > >>>>>> when the distance is large. Same with shabda or sound. While the
> > >>>>>> sound is
> > >>>>>> cognized as well as it being ‘distant’, exact distance is not
> > >>>>>> involved in
> > >>>>>> the cognition.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> We can now consider ‘where’  the cognition takes place when all
> the
> > >>>>>> three
> > >>>>>> involved in the cognition; namely antahkarana vritti,rUpa or light
> > >>>>>> enveloping/emnating from the object, and shabda or sound emanating
> > >>>>>> from the
> > >>>>>> object;  all three are in motion, and the distances between the
> > >>>>>> objects and
> > >>>>>> the experience are large.The location where visual cognition takes
> > >>>>>> place
> > >>>>>> can be considered as the location where the rUpa or light
> enveloping
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>> object or emanating from it is coincident with the antahkarana
> > vritti
> > >>>>>> issuing forth through the eyes. Similarly for the cognition of
> > sound.
> > >>>>>> These
> > >>>>>> locations need not be the same as their origin. When distances
> > >>>>>> involved are
> > >>>>>> negligible compared to their speeds, location of cognition will be
> > >>>>>> practically the same as the object. When distances are large, they
> > >>>>>> could be
> > >>>>>> quite different.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> This explains the reason for cognition taking place at different
> > >>>>>> times in
> > >>>>>> case of lightning and thunder for example. This would also cover
> > >>>>>> anomalies
> > >>>>>> in respect of cognition of very distant stars/planets etc.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Regards
> > >>>>>> Chandramouli
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> <
> > >>>>>>
> >
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