[Advaita-l] Fwd: [advaitin] Yet another Mahavakya in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Raghav ji,
I am in agreement with your comments in entirety.

Regards
Venkatraghavan

On Thu, 28 Oct 2021, 09:03 Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l, <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste Venkatraghavan ji
> There do not seem to be any references to say that shravaNam has to be done
> afresh once again after manana and nidhidhyAsanam have already removed the
> samshaya and viparyaya obstacles.
>
> Also if it is insisted that hearing the words tat tvam asi from the outside
> is required once again after SMN, then the samskAra can be used to utter
> the words aloud by oneself because tAtparya niscaya is already present.
>
> Once tAtparya niscaya is there, it does not seem logical to assert the need
> for once again repeating the entire long shravaNa process over again.
>
> In laukika cases, samskAra is not regarded as a independent pramANa, but
> the samskAra of shravaNam has the capacity to produce vRttis which then
> remove the avidyA. It is shravaNam alone that is producing the GYAnam even
> in laukika cases.
>
> Even in the initial shravaNam, the use of air waves and the indriya golakas
> for receiving the vAkyas is permitted. Also there is a time delay between
> the utterance by the Guru and hearing by the student. These physical
> transmission mechanisms (avAntara kAraNas) do not alter the fact that it is
> shravaNam alone that is the cause of the GYAnam.
>
> Laukika examples are plentiful. A lecture on physics or maths by the
> Acharya is not understood when initially heard but later by dwelling on
> what is heard, the laukika GYAnam of physics or some mathematical theorem
> does indeed arise in the case of manda madhyama students.
>
> In such laukika cases of Gyaanam arising after a time delay, the samskAra
> is accepted as facilitating the pramANa giving rise to Gyaanam. Even in
> such "delayed" Gyaanam the samskAra is not the pramANam but it does play a
> facilitative role.
>
> It can be asserted that same holds for GYAnam produced by shravaNam
> facilitated by its samskAra.
>
> Even in the case of the immediate arising of GYAnam upon shravaNam , as
> indicated in brahma sUtra bhAShya (1.3.28) on shabda pramANam in
> devatAdhikaranam, the samskAra of the varNas of the words of 'tat' and
> 'tvam' produces the vAkya GYAnam (upon 'asi' being heard) and without the
> facilitative role played by the samskAra of the chronologically earlier
> words tat and tvam whose sounds are no longer present, the Gyaanam does not
> arise. Therefore the mere mediacy of samskAra in the shravaNam process does
> not render a given GYAnam as "not due to shravaNam".
>
>
> Om
>
> On Wed, 27 Oct, 2021, 2:35 pm Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l, <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Namaste Bhaskar ji
> > Exactly - I didn't think of that example, thanks. We can't dissmiss that
> as
> > arthavAda either, because by devatAdhikaraNa nyAya, it is a case of
> > bhUtArthavAda.
> >
> > So if we accept that that is a valid case of aparoksha jnAna, then either
> > mahAvAkya shravaNam being the cause of aparoksha jnAna must be denied,
> > which is siddhAnta hAni, or we must accept that a samskAra of mahAvAkya
> > shravaNa can sometimes be sufficient for aparoksha jnAna later.
> >
> > Regards
> > Venkatraghavan
> >
> > On Wed, 27 Oct 2021, 09:15 Bhaskar YR, <bhaskar.yr at hitachienergy.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > praNAms
> > > Hare Krishna
> > >
> > > One example comes to my mind : vAmadeva realized in his mother's womb.
> > > How can it be possible with doing the shravaNAdi sAdhana in his
> previous
> > > janma??  Even though it is not mentioned that he recollected the
> sharuti
> > > vAkya shravaNAdi sAdhana which he did in his previous janma, it is to
> be
> > > understood that sAdhana would fructify over a period of time when the
> > time
> > > is ripe and more importantly without any effort in the current janma
> > > towards that jnana.  It is a possibility in some special cases like
> > ramaNa
> > > who all of a sudden realized the secret of death without formal
> > education (
> > > mahAvAkya shravaNAdi sAdhana in particular)in shAstra-s.
> > >
> > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> > > bhaskar
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Advaita-l <advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> On
> Behalf
> > > Of Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2021 1:36 PM
> > > To: H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> > > Cc: Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>; A discussion group for
> > Advaita
> > > Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fwd: [advaitin] Yet another Mahavakya in the
> > > Brihadaranyaka Upanishad
> > >
> > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
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> > >
> > >
> > > Namaste,
> > > The answer to that question was I don't recall any such reference.
> > > However I thought you went on to conclude from such a (possible)
> absence
> > > that aparoksha jnAna was therefore not possible from a recollection.
> > > If you are instead not saying that, I don't think there is any argument
> > > here.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Venkatraghavan
> > >
> > > On Wed, 27 Oct 2021, 08:37 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Namaste.
> > > >
> > > > Reg  <<  One cannot hold that no  such recollection of the mahAvAkya
> > > > takes place  >>,
> > > >
> > > > I think we are deviating from the original question. I have not
> stated
> > > > anywhere that recollection of the mahAvAkya heard earlier does not
> > > > take place at all. I had repeated this earlier also. The issue was
> > > > whether such recollection at a later date can by itself lead to
> > > > aparOksha jnAna without any further effort. Any references to that
> > > > effect in the Bhashya. The intention was not any independent analysis
> > > > of the issue. The issue was whether there are any references to that
> > > effect in the Bhashya.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 12:49 PM Venkatraghavan S <
> agnimile at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Namaste,
> > > >>
> > > >> From a practical perspective too, in manana and nididhyAsana also,
> > > >> one recalls the shruti vAkya heard in shravaNam. All recollection is
> > > >> due to samskAra of prior experience. One cannot hold that no  such
> > > >> recollection of the mahAvAkya takes place.
> > > >>
> > > >> Nor can one say that such a recollection of the mahAvAkya during
> > > >> manana and nididhyAsana cannot give rise to jnAna either. It
> > > >> contradicts both experience and the bhAShya to BS1.1.4 which says
> > > >> श्रवणवदवगत्यर्थत्वान्मनननिदिध्यासनयोः.
> > > >>
> > > >> Even if that is somehow true and jnAna cannot occur during manana
> > > >> nididhyAsana - Suppose a person has overcome all his jnAna
> > > >> pratibandhas after manana nididhyAsana over a long time.
> > > >> It is not appropriate to insist that one must again go back to their
> > > >> guru for mahAvAkya shravaNam so that they can get jnAna. And if they
> > > >> don't, that they cannot be liberated in that birth!
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards,
> > > >> Venkatraghavan
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021, 17:30 V Subrahmanian, <
> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 9:25 PM Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
> > > >>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Namaste,
> > > >>>> samskAra need not be mentioned - as long as the possibility is not
> > > >>>> denied, there is nothing to say it is impossible.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> In the Brihadaranyaka mantra 4.4.2  तं विद्याकर्मणी समन्वारभेते
> > > >>> पूर्वप्रज्ञा च ॥ २ ॥  Shankara says for vidya: विद्याकर्मणी —
> विद्या
> > च
> > > >>> कर्म च विद्याकर्मणी विद्या सर्वप्रकारा विहिता प्रतिषिद्धा च अविहिता
> > > >>> अप्रतिषिद्धा च,  all these learnt, studied, are part of the jiva
> who
> > > >>> transmigrates to another body. दृश्यते च केषाञ्चित्
> कासुचित्क्रियासु
> > > >>> चित्रकर्मादिलक्षणासु विनैव इह अभ्यासेन जन्मत एव कौशलम् , कासुचित्
> > > >>> अत्यन्तसौकर्ययुक्तास्वपि अकौशलं केषाञ्चित् ;  what has been
> > > >>> learnt/practiced stays with the individual forever as vasana and
> > > manifests
> > > >>> in another body without the need for its abhyasa afresh.  He gives
> > the
> > > >>> example of drawing, etc. And concludes: तस्मात् एतत् त्रयं
> > > >>> शाकटिकसम्भारस्थानीयं परलोकपथ्यदनं विद्याकर्मपूर्वप्रज्ञाख्यम् ।
> > यस्मात्
> > > >>> विद्याकर्मणी पूर्वप्रज्ञा च देहान्तरप्रतिपत्त्युपभोगसाधनम् ,
> तस्मात्
> > > >>> विद्याकर्मादि शुभमेव समाचरेत् , यथा इष्टदेहसंयोगोपभोगौ स्याताम् —
> इति
> > > >>> प्रकरणार्थः ॥  Since what is acquired stays, one should endeavor to
> > do
> > > the
> > > >>> good alone so that one gets a good life in future.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> From this it is clear that vidya, whether it is laukika or
> adhyatma,
> > > >>> acquired in one life manifests in another life when the necessary
> > > >>> circumstances are in place. So, it remains as samskara and aids
> > > >>> its perfection.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> There is a famous subhashita too:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> गतेऽपि वयसि ग्राह्या विद्या सर्वात्मना बुधैः |
> > > >>> यद्द्यापि स्यान्न फलदा सुलभा सान्यSजन्मनि  |
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The  wise and learned persons have ordained that 'Vidyaa' should be
> > > >>> learnt even if  a person  becomes aged.
> > > >>> Although such learning may not  be fruitful to him during his
> > lifetime,
> > > >>> in his next birth it is easier for him to acquire knowledge because
> > of
> > > his
> > > >>> 'Samskaars' in his previous birth .
> > > >>>
> > > >>> regards
> > > >>> subbu
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Regards
> > > >>>> Venkatraghavan
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
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