[Advaita-l] Fwd: [advaitin] Yet another Mahavakya in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

Namaste Venkatraghavan ji
There do not seem to be any references to say that shravaNam has to be done
afresh once again after manana and nidhidhyAsanam have already removed the
samshaya and viparyaya obstacles.

Also if it is insisted that hearing the words tat tvam asi from the outside
is required once again after SMN, then the samskAra can be used to utter
the words aloud by oneself because tAtparya niscaya is already present.

Once tAtparya niscaya is there, it does not seem logical to assert the need
for once again repeating the entire long shravaNa process over again.

In laukika cases, samskAra is not regarded as a independent pramANa, but
the samskAra of shravaNam has the capacity to produce vRttis which then
remove the avidyA. It is shravaNam alone that is producing the GYAnam even
in laukika cases.

Even in the initial shravaNam, the use of air waves and the indriya golakas
for receiving the vAkyas is permitted. Also there is a time delay between
the utterance by the Guru and hearing by the student. These physical
transmission mechanisms (avAntara kAraNas) do not alter the fact that it is
shravaNam alone that is the cause of the GYAnam.

Laukika examples are plentiful. A lecture on physics or maths by the
Acharya is not understood when initially heard but later by dwelling on
what is heard, the laukika GYAnam of physics or some mathematical theorem
does indeed arise in the case of manda madhyama students.

In such laukika cases of Gyaanam arising after a time delay, the samskAra
is accepted as facilitating the pramANa giving rise to Gyaanam. Even in
such "delayed" Gyaanam the samskAra is not the pramANam but it does play a
facilitative role.

It can be asserted that same holds for GYAnam produced by shravaNam
facilitated by its samskAra.

Even in the case of the immediate arising of GYAnam upon shravaNam , as
indicated in brahma sUtra bhAShya (1.3.28) on shabda pramANam in
devatAdhikaranam, the samskAra of the varNas of the words of 'tat' and
'tvam' produces the vAkya GYAnam (upon 'asi' being heard) and without the
facilitative role played by the samskAra of the chronologically earlier
words tat and tvam whose sounds are no longer present, the Gyaanam does not
arise. Therefore the mere mediacy of samskAra in the shravaNam process does
not render a given GYAnam as "not due to shravaNam".


Om

On Wed, 27 Oct, 2021, 2:35 pm Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l, <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste Bhaskar ji
> Exactly - I didn't think of that example, thanks. We can't dissmiss that as
> arthavAda either, because by devatAdhikaraNa nyAya, it is a case of
> bhUtArthavAda.
>
> So if we accept that that is a valid case of aparoksha jnAna, then either
> mahAvAkya shravaNam being the cause of aparoksha jnAna must be denied,
> which is siddhAnta hAni, or we must accept that a samskAra of mahAvAkya
> shravaNa can sometimes be sufficient for aparoksha jnAna later.
>
> Regards
> Venkatraghavan
>
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2021, 09:15 Bhaskar YR, <bhaskar.yr at hitachienergy.com>
> wrote:
>
> > praNAms
> > Hare Krishna
> >
> > One example comes to my mind : vAmadeva realized in his mother's womb.
> > How can it be possible with doing the shravaNAdi sAdhana in his previous
> > janma??  Even though it is not mentioned that he recollected the sharuti
> > vAkya shravaNAdi sAdhana which he did in his previous janma, it is to be
> > understood that sAdhana would fructify over a period of time when the
> time
> > is ripe and more importantly without any effort in the current janma
> > towards that jnana.  It is a possibility in some special cases like
> ramaNa
> > who all of a sudden realized the secret of death without formal
> education (
> > mahAvAkya shravaNAdi sAdhana in particular)in shAstra-s.
> >
> > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> > bhaskar
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Advaita-l <advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> On Behalf
> > Of Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2021 1:36 PM
> > To: H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> > Cc: Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>; A discussion group for
> Advaita
> > Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fwd: [advaitin] Yet another Mahavakya in the
> > Brihadaranyaka Upanishad
> >
> > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> > the content is safe.
> >
> >
> > Namaste,
> > The answer to that question was I don't recall any such reference.
> > However I thought you went on to conclude from such a (possible) absence
> > that aparoksha jnAna was therefore not possible from a recollection.
> > If you are instead not saying that, I don't think there is any argument
> > here.
> >
> > Regards
> > Venkatraghavan
> >
> > On Wed, 27 Oct 2021, 08:37 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Namaste.
> > >
> > > Reg  <<  One cannot hold that no  such recollection of the mahAvAkya
> > > takes place  >>,
> > >
> > > I think we are deviating from the original question. I have not stated
> > > anywhere that recollection of the mahAvAkya heard earlier does not
> > > take place at all. I had repeated this earlier also. The issue was
> > > whether such recollection at a later date can by itself lead to
> > > aparOksha jnAna without any further effort. Any references to that
> > > effect in the Bhashya. The intention was not any independent analysis
> > > of the issue. The issue was whether there are any references to that
> > effect in the Bhashya.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 12:49 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Namaste,
> > >>
> > >> From a practical perspective too, in manana and nididhyAsana also,
> > >> one recalls the shruti vAkya heard in shravaNam. All recollection is
> > >> due to samskAra of prior experience. One cannot hold that no  such
> > >> recollection of the mahAvAkya takes place.
> > >>
> > >> Nor can one say that such a recollection of the mahAvAkya during
> > >> manana and nididhyAsana cannot give rise to jnAna either. It
> > >> contradicts both experience and the bhAShya to BS1.1.4 which says
> > >> श्रवणवदवगत्यर्थत्वान्मनननिदिध्यासनयोः.
> > >>
> > >> Even if that is somehow true and jnAna cannot occur during manana
> > >> nididhyAsana - Suppose a person has overcome all his jnAna
> > >> pratibandhas after manana nididhyAsana over a long time.
> > >> It is not appropriate to insist that one must again go back to their
> > >> guru for mahAvAkya shravaNam so that they can get jnAna. And if they
> > >> don't, that they cannot be liberated in that birth!
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Venkatraghavan
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021, 17:30 V Subrahmanian, <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 9:25 PM Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
> > >>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Namaste,
> > >>>> samskAra need not be mentioned - as long as the possibility is not
> > >>>> denied, there is nothing to say it is impossible.
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> In the Brihadaranyaka mantra 4.4.2  तं विद्याकर्मणी समन्वारभेते
> > >>> पूर्वप्रज्ञा च ॥ २ ॥  Shankara says for vidya: विद्याकर्मणी — विद्या
> च
> > >>> कर्म च विद्याकर्मणी विद्या सर्वप्रकारा विहिता प्रतिषिद्धा च अविहिता
> > >>> अप्रतिषिद्धा च,  all these learnt, studied, are part of the jiva who
> > >>> transmigrates to another body. दृश्यते च केषाञ्चित् कासुचित्क्रियासु
> > >>> चित्रकर्मादिलक्षणासु विनैव इह अभ्यासेन जन्मत एव कौशलम् , कासुचित्
> > >>> अत्यन्तसौकर्ययुक्तास्वपि अकौशलं केषाञ्चित् ;  what has been
> > >>> learnt/practiced stays with the individual forever as vasana and
> > manifests
> > >>> in another body without the need for its abhyasa afresh.  He gives
> the
> > >>> example of drawing, etc. And concludes: तस्मात् एतत् त्रयं
> > >>> शाकटिकसम्भारस्थानीयं परलोकपथ्यदनं विद्याकर्मपूर्वप्रज्ञाख्यम् ।
> यस्मात्
> > >>> विद्याकर्मणी पूर्वप्रज्ञा च देहान्तरप्रतिपत्त्युपभोगसाधनम् , तस्मात्
> > >>> विद्याकर्मादि शुभमेव समाचरेत् , यथा इष्टदेहसंयोगोपभोगौ स्याताम् — इति
> > >>> प्रकरणार्थः ॥  Since what is acquired stays, one should endeavor to
> do
> > the
> > >>> good alone so that one gets a good life in future.
> > >>>
> > >>> From this it is clear that vidya, whether it is laukika or adhyatma,
> > >>> acquired in one life manifests in another life when the necessary
> > >>> circumstances are in place. So, it remains as samskara and aids
> > >>> its perfection.
> > >>>
> > >>> There is a famous subhashita too:
> > >>>
> > >>> गतेऽपि वयसि ग्राह्या विद्या सर्वात्मना बुधैः |
> > >>> यद्द्यापि स्यान्न फलदा सुलभा सान्यSजन्मनि  |
> > >>>
> > >>> The  wise and learned persons have ordained that 'Vidyaa' should be
> > >>> learnt even if  a person  becomes aged.
> > >>> Although such learning may not  be fruitful to him during his
> lifetime,
> > >>> in his next birth it is easier for him to acquire knowledge because
> of
> > his
> > >>> 'Samskaars' in his previous birth .
> > >>>
> > >>> regards
> > >>> subbu
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regards
> > >>>> Venkatraghavan
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
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