[Advaita-l] [advaitin] 'Dvaita accepts body-adhyasa'

[V Subrahmanian]

On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 8:13 PM Srinath Vedagarbha <svedagarbha at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 4:12 AM V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>
>> They
>> have accepted a 'svarupa deha' for the Atma which is inalienable from the
>> Atma.  This jiva (for them the Atma is forever a jiva, both in samsara and
>> in moksha as they admit Vishnu to be the Controller and the jiva to be
>> ever
>> the controlled.) with its default body mind complex (which is distinct
>> from
>> the various bodies a jiva would take during its bound state) is the one
>> which will enjoy bhoga (of women, drinking, merrymaking etc) in mukti.
>> (For
>> this they cite the authority of the Chandogya Upanishad 8.12.3 passage 'sa
>> paryeti jakshan ramamaanaH kreedan streebhirva yaanairvaa..' स तत्र
>> पर्येति जक्षत्क्रीडन्
>> रममाणः स्त्रीभिर्वा यानैर्वा ज्ञातिभिर्वा...)  And this body is not
>> necessarily a human-like body but could be of any species.  This body will
>> have a mind, sense organs and a gender and caste too.  And it is also not
>> free of sattva, etc. gunas.  So, for such an Atman it is no problem to
>> have
>> pramatrutva, knowership, since it already has what all is required to be a
>> knower, the body, etc.  It is this Atman that has a-prakrita body mind
>> complex  that has the adhyasa of a prakrita body mind complex resulting in
>> samsara.
>>
>
> Dvita does not say Atma has 'svarupa deha'. The idea of Svarupa-deha is a
> contradiction in terms. "dEha" generally means which has origin,
> destruction etc., whereas "svarUpa" means self same nature. Therefore,
> Dvaita holds jIva has self-same nature (svarUpa) of unique aprkrita guNa-s.
>

Here is what well known Madhva scholar Sri Vishnudasa Nagendracharya says:


Vishnudasa Nagendracharya
http://vishwanandini.com/fullprashnottara.php?serialnumber=VNP078

The gist of the following is: The last body in the bhuloka is of the same
form of that jiva's svarupadeha. If one is a bird in his swarupa, the last
body will also be of the form of a bird. If one is a shudra in his svarupa,
the last body will be a shudra body for him. The svarupa has varna,
aashrama, form..all will be so in the last body too.


ಇಲ್ಲ. ಯಾತನಾಶರೀರವಾಗಲೀ, ಭೋಗಶರೀರವಾಗಲೀ ಎರಡೂ ಸಹ ಕರ್ಮದಿಂದ ಬರುವಂತಹದ್ದು.
ಹೀಗಾಗಿ ನಮ್ಮ ಕರ್ಮ ಯಾವ ರೀತಿಯಾಗಿದೆಯೋ ಆ ರೀತಿಯ ಯಾತನಾ/ಭೋಗ ಶರೀರವನ್ನು
ಪಡೆಯುತ್ತೇವೆ.

ಸ್ವರೂಪದೇಹದಂತೆ ಇರುವ ದೇಹ ಎರಡು. ಒಂದು ಲಿಂಗದೇಹ.

ಎರಡನೆಯದು ಚರಮದೇಹ.

ಚರಮದೇಹದ ವಿವರಣೆಯನ್ನು ಇದರ ಕೆಳಗಿನ ಕಾಮೆಂಟಿಗೆ ಉತ್ತರವಾಗಿ ನೀಡಿದ್ದೇನೆ.

ಯಾವ ದೇಹ ಭೂಲೋಕದಲ್ಲಿ ಕಡೆಯ ದೇಹವೋ ಅದು ಚರಮದೇಹ. ಆ ಚರಮದೇಹ ನಮ್ಮ ಸ್ವರೂಪದೇಹದ
ಆಕಾರದಲ್ಲಿಯೇ ಇರುತ್ತದೆ. ಅಂದರೆ ನಾವು ಸ್ವರೂಪದಲ್ಲಿ ಹಕ್ಕಿಯಾಗಿದ್ದರೆ ಚರಮದೇಹವೂ
ಹಕ್ಕಿಯ ಜನ್ಮವೇ ಆಗಿರುತ್ತದೆ. ನಾವು ಸ್ವರೂಪದಲ್ಲಿ ಶೂದ್ರರಾಗಿದ್ದರೆ
ಚರಮದೇಹದಲ್ಲಿಯೂ ಶೂದ್ರರಾಗಿಯೇ ಇರುತ್ತೇವೆ.

ಸ್ವರೂಪದ ವರ್ಣ, ಆಶ್ರಮ, ಆಕಾರಗಳು ಚರಮಸ್ಥೂಲದೇಹದಲ್ಲಿರುತ್ತವೆ.

ಮತ್ತೊಂದು ವಿಷಯ, ಯಾತನಾ/ಭೋಗಶರೀರಗಳೂ ಸಹ ಸ್ಥೂಲ ಶರೀರಗಳೇ. ಸ್ಥೂಲ ಶರೀರದ ಪ್ರಭೇದವಷ್ಟೇ ಅದು.

He further says there itself:  ಸ್ವರೂಪದೇಹ ಅಪ್ರಾಕೃತವಾದದ್ದು, ಲಿಂಗದೇಹ ಶುದ್ಧ
ಪ್ರಕೃತ್ಯಾತ್ಮಕವಾದದ್ದು,ಸ್ಥೂಲದೇಹ ಪಂಚಭೂತಾತ್ಮಕವಾದದ್ದು. The swvarupa deha is
aprakruta while the ling deha (what advaitins call sukshma sharira) is of
prakriti material and sthula deha is of panchabuta.

ಸ್ವರೂಪದೇಹ ಅಪ್ರಾಕೃತವಾದದ್ದು, ಸ್ವಾಭಾವಿಕವಾದ ಶರೀರ. ಇದಕ್ಕೆ ಉತ್ಪತ್ತಿಯೂ ಇಲ್ಲ,
ವಿನಾಶವೂ ಇಲ್ಲ.  He says: the svarupa deha is      native,natural,
default, for the jiva. There is no origination or destruction for the
svarupa deha.



Vishnudasa Nagendracharya

ಸ್ವರೂಪದಲ್ಲಿ  ಪ್ರಾಣಿ ಪಕ್ಷಿಗಳಾಗಿರುವವರೂ ಮನುಷ್ಯಜನ್ಮವನ್ನು ಪಡೆದು ಜ್ಞಾನವನ್ನು
ಪಡೆಯುತ್ತಾರೆ. ಉಪಾಸನೆಯನ್ನು ಮನುಷ್ಯಜನ್ಮಗಳಲ್ಲಿಯೂ ಮಾಡುತ್ತಾರೆ, ಪ್ರಾಣಿ ಪಕ್ಷಿ
ಜನ್ಮಗಳಲ್ಲಿಯೂ ಮಾಡುತ್ತಾರೆ (ಗರುಡ, ನಂದಿ, ಐರಾವತ, ಮೂಷಿಕ ಮುಂತಾದವಂತೆ.
ಇವರೆಲ್ಲರೂ ಭಗವಂತನ ಸಾಕ್ಷಾತ್ಕಾರ ಪಡೆದವರು. ಪಡೆಯಲಿಕ್ಕಿಂತ ಮುಂಚೆಯೂ ಪ್ರಾಣಿ
ಪಕ್ಷಿ ಜನ್ಮಗಳಲ್ಲಿ ಸಾಧನೆಯುಂಟು. ಖಾಂಡವವನದಾಹದಲ್ಲಿ ಉಳಿದುಕೊಳ್ಳುವ ನಾಲ್ಕು
ಪಕ್ಷಿಗಳಂತೆ) ಚರಮದೇಹದಲ್ಲಿ ನಿಯಮಿತವಾಗಿ ಸ್ವರೂಪ ಹೇಗಿದೆಯೋ ಆ ರೀತಿಯ ದೇಹ.

He says: A jiva could be an animal or bird, etc. in his svarupa.  That will
be his charama deha too in the world.

Here is what Sri Keshava Rao Tadipatri says in his blog:
https://sites.google.com/site/madhwaprameyaqa/home/kesavarao

The other synonyms for Jeeva or Jeevatma or Atman are "svarUpa, svabhAva,
svarUpendriya, svarUpa deha". (So, jivatma is also called Atma and svarupa
deha is a synonym for the jiva Atma)

The Jeeva or svarUpa deha are aprAkritika or non-materialistic.

regards
subbu




> I can understand for Advains it is difficult to understand how could a
> chaitanya tatva can have pramatrutva. iccha, jnAna, kriya etc etc guNa-s
> without having some sort of dEha. This difficulty is due to the fact that
> in their siddhAnta they have not accepted any guNa-s to chaitanya tatva.
> But in Dvaita it is not that way. Both Paramatma and Jivatma are accepted
> as having svarUpa guNa-s, albeit in various qualitative and quantitative
> scales.
>
>
>
>>
>> Also, they have assigned a 'dependent reality' (paratantra) to everything
>> other than Brahman (Vishnu) who alone has 'Independent, Svatantra,
>> Reality', just like Advaitins hold Brahman to be Paramarthika satya and
>> everything else only vyavaharika satya.
>>
>
> Not quite correct.
>
> Independent and dependent realities are absolutely real in Dvaita.
>
> Duality of pAramArthika and vyavahArika itself is mithya and vyavahArika.
> Speaking from reality perspective there is not even such biforgation. Some
> advaitins think in temporal sense that one was in vyavahArika earlier and
> after reaching pAramArthika the vyavahArika gets sublated. That is not
> correct. vyavahArika avastha is subject of trikAlika niSheda
>
> /sv
>
>
>
>
>