[Advaita-l] Paul Hacker on Avidya in Brahma Sutras

[S Venkatraman]

Dear Mr. Cohen,

Is a download of Mr Dalal’s article available somewhere? I would very much like to read the same. 

Many thanks and regards,
Venkatraman

Sent from my iPhone

> On 16-May-2022, at 4:03 PM, Michael Chandra Cohen via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> 
> Sri Vinodh, pranam.
> Thanks for the fine, well stated manana. It is also proper Sankara bhasya
> Vedanta (as opposed to the Vedanta, pos, -Sankara). Simply, if it is
> understood that adhyasa is the problem which is caused by non-recognition
> of Self, conundrums such as locus become moot. But, if adhyasa is thought
> to have some actual existential status then all sorts of explanations are
> required and we get the post-Sankara logicans.
> 
> The problem, highlighted by Hacker's study, narrows down to waking as a
> relatively real state, highlighted by the Dalal article, or waking as
> adhyasa. The difference between pot/clay drstanta and rope/snake. The
> former give pot a dependent status but not unreal. There is no snake in
> rope/snake drstanta. These are among the arguments convincingly made by Sri
> Swami Satchidanandendraji/SSS.
> 
> It seems to me you have reasoned yourself in line with SSS
> 
>> On Mon, May 16, 2022 at 1:08 AM Vinodh via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Sri Michael Cohen,
>> 
>> The primal ignorance is the cause of the world according to the traditional
>> (Shankara) view, as far as I understand.
>> 
>> The pertinent question is where that avidya exists. If it be argued that it
>> exists in the Brahman, then that appears contradictory because then even
>> after becoming one with Brahman avidya will persist. On the other hand, if
>> it be argued that it exists in the Jiva’s mind, then again it appears that
>> this cannot be the case because avidya is the cause for the Jiva’s
>> existence as an entity separate from others.
>> 
>> The traditional answer that I have seen to this conundrum starts by asking
>> to whom this question (of where avidya exists) arises. It cannot be one who
>> knows Brahman and hence has become one with Brahman because for him there
>> is no avidya and hence no question of where it exists. Therefore, avidya
>> has to be said to exist in the one who is posing this question being
>> unaware of Brahman. As an analogy, consider an illusion of a snake on a
>> rope or of silver in a conch shell. For the one who knows the truth, the
>> snake or the silver does not even exist. The one who sees the snake or
>> silver does not see the underlying substratum of truth because of
>> ignorance. When he is told that he does see the truth out of ignorance, he
>> may ask where is this ignorance? It is of course within him who is posing
>> this question! :)
>> 
>> Of course, fundamentally, neither does the world nor does the ignorance
>> that is said to have caused it exist. What exists is one without a second
>> (advya), changeless (avyaya), and never born (aja). All the explanations
>> about the cause of the world etc is given only to point to this one truth.
>> They are all ultimately negated by the ‘neti neti’ vaakyas (‘not so’). This
>> is the method of the Vedanta — adhyaaropa apavaada or false superimposition
>> followed by negation. The ignorance is falsely superimposed on the truth to
>> seemingly give an explanation for the cause of the world to the beginner
>> student, only to later negate the existence of the world and its cause.
>> 
>> Om tat sat
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun 15. May 2022 at 23:31, Michael Chandra Cohen via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> Sri Venkatesh, pranam. I don't know how you can say that mulAvidya - the
>>> material seed, present in deepsleep, a bhavarupa shakti -  is not
>>> considered in traditional circles to be the cause of the world and thus
>>> "relatively real". Here is a link to a recent eminent encyclopedic entry
>>> repeatedly referring to a relative real satta.
>>> 
>>> https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/shankara/
>>> 
>>> On Sun, May 15, 2022 at 11:23 AM Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l <
>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Namaste
>>>> 
>>>> The question of Mula Avidya is discussed extensively in traditional
>>> circles
>>>> also. It is a misconception to think Mula Avidya as a really existing
>>> thing
>>>> giving rise to all Avidyas. No disciple of Sankara has said it really
>>>> exists. For explaining the world and vyavahara this Avidya is used.
>>>> 
>>>> On Sun, May 15, 2022 at 6:41 PM Michael Chandra Cohen via Advaita-l <
>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> It seems to me any defense of Mulavidya vada would have to account
>> for
>>>>> Hacker's exhaustive study. Sengaku Mayeda performed the same analysis
>>> on
>>>>> Upadesa Sahasri and came to similar conclusions
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nE0s2sFIqc0fYdgto0rGlW16xx6lsNEDJKsWVr6CJPw/edit?usp=sharing
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Regards
>>>> 
>>>> -Venkatesh
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