[Advaita-l] Advaita-l Digest, Vol 220, Issue 10

[VTCS Rao]

Many thanks for the excellent summary. Jaishankar ji.  Much appreciated.

However, I have this question bothering me always. It is our mind which is helping us to get rational, analytical interpretation of what we read and it is the same mind which perceives the material objects

How we can conclude a part of what it perceives is true and other part is not? Though we all read understand the Atman is beyond mind and intellect, but isn’t it our mind saying so.

Any views on this  from this esteemed elite  group ?

Regards/ VTCS


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From: Jaishankar Narayanan via Advaita-l<mailto:advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Sent: 21 November 2022 08:56
To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org<mailto:advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Cc: Jaishankar Narayanan<mailto:jai1971 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Advaita-l Digest, Vol 220, Issue 10

Namaste,

I listened to the below talk shared in this group a few days back and have
a few points to share.

The speaker mentions at around 54 min the below

For traditional advaitins adhyaaropa - apavaada is one of the methods the
Upanishads use. For them there are other methods like Kaarana-kaarya
prakriya, avasthatraya-prakriya, panchakosha-prakriya. But Swamiji shows
that these different prakriyas are only varieties of adhyaaropa-apavada.

The above is a complete misrepresentation of the traditional teachers. In
every prakriya there is adhyaaropa and apavada without which advaita cannot
be established. That is how it was taught to me by my Gurus who are
traditional teachers. Even if you take an introductory book like Vedanta
Sara the author details shareera-traya, pancha-kosha, avastha-traya and
then says

 एवमध्यारोपः ॥ १३६॥ अपवादो नाम रज्जुविवर्तस्य सर्पस्य
रज्जुमात्रत्ववद्वस्तुविवर्तस्यावस्तुनोऽज्ञानादेः प्रपञ्चस्य वस्तुमात्रत्वम्
॥ १३७॥

In kaarana-kaarya prakriya - kaarya is mithya and so negated. The
kaaranatvam also is mithya and so negated. In avasthatraya-prakriya
experienced world is negated as mithya and the status of being a subject
for the experiencer is also negated. In panchkosha prakriya too it is
similar.

Further at around 49 min she says

Swamiji says the very concept of avidya itself is adhyaaropa. Further she
says Avidya is the primary adhyaaropa - mula adhyaaropa - it has no
ultimate ontological status. It is used for a specific purpose (as a
pedagogical tool) temporarily and then retracted after its purpose stands
served.

Now the above applies exactly to moolavidya. In fact with the above
understanding, mithya- ajnaana / moolavidya answers all the ontological and
epistemological questions satisfactorily but an atyanta-asat avidya as
proposed by Swamiji will lead to serious ontological and epistemological
issues.

Further she claims that Swami ji does not accept the classification of
jnaana-adhyaasa and artha-adhyaasa. In that case how jeevanmukti can be
explained is a puzzle. In fact Shankara clearly accepts that the dvaita
perception is there for both jnaani and ajnaani but the jnaani does not
take it as tattva. See for example Br. Up 3.5.1 bhashya

अस्ति चायं भेदकृतो मिथ्याव्यवहारः, येषां ब्रह्मतत्त्वादन्यत्वेन वस्तु
विद्यते, येषां च नास्ति ; परमार्थवादिभिस्तु श्रुत्यनुसारेण निरूप्यमाणे
वस्तुनि — किं तत्त्वतोऽस्ति वस्तु किं वा नास्तीति, ब्रह्मैकमेवाद्वितीयं
सर्वसंव्यवहारशून्यमिति निर्धार्यते ; तेन न कश्चिद्विरोधः ।

Finally this idea of avidya being jnaana-abhaava is not new. It has been
discussed in different texts and rejected for good reason. But still if
some people find such prakriyas help them understand advaita then good luck
to them. The traditional teaching method is quite anti-fragile and has
answered all kinds of criticism already and so it will continue in spite of
some new misguided criticisms.

with love and prayers,
Jaishankar


> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 07:56:29 -0500
> From: Michael Chandra Cohen <michaelchandra108 at gmail.com>
> To: advaitin at googlegroups.com
> Cc: Advaita-L <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] [advaitin] A talk on avidyA by Manjushree
>         Hegde in YT
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAAz9PvFxJhMX0eMxTFAwdWYxVw0ikHYQtCcw2wTA1eqKe4OCMg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I  believe this talk is a remarkable presentation on the debate between SSS
> and mulAvidya vada - their historical context, clear statements of both
> positions, pro and cons of both positions and a worthy resolution.
>
> Smt. Hegde is a voice to hear, erudite and succinct and a pleasure to
> listen to regardless of your vada.
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 6:27 AM 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin <
> advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> > praNAms
> >
> > Hare Krishna
> >
> >
> >
> > Below is the link.  Please listen to it.
> >
> >
> >
> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2Fsk8-uHvOCxo&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cbff2acd48f13497ea15308dacb702525%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638045979791893863%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5LH0EKc9N65DswzS2gKcwanMV8EnfKjVYagj0pZd%2B64%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2Fsk8-uHvOCxo&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cbff2acd48f13497ea15308dacb702525%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638045979792050100%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4jygT2lkXl2XOjLgToF1ONikdqMztNwdnBG6VB82U%2Fk%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> >
> > bhaskar
>
> End of Advaita-l Digest, Vol 220, Issue 10
> ******************************************
>
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