[Advaita-l] [advaitin] A talk on avidyA by Manjushree

[Michael Chandra Cohen]

Namaste Jaishankara Narayan, thank you for your reflections in reply. I
have taken the liberty of sharing your response on Facebook and will, in
turn, share here worthy responses.

To  your first point, what is mithya? Vedanta Sara is
staunchly mulAvidyAvada. .The text lists 5 definitions of maya/avidya all
of which denote some kind of positive, bhavarupa, existent.
To your second point, a) please translate Brbh 3.5.1. -- b) " Now the above
(pedagogical tool) applies exactly to moolavidya. " -- moola avidya is an
existent, Eshwara's Maya Shakti, a positive bhavarupa avidya and not simply
a teaching tool?
To your third point, please be specific, how exactly and where has jnana
abhava been dealt with?

On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 1:02 AM H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste.
>
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2022, 09:07 VTCS Rao, <vtcsrao at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> <<  How we can conclude a part of what it perceives is true and other part
> is
>  not? Though we all read understand the Atman is beyond mind and intellect,
>  but isn’t it our mind saying so >>,
>
> How come, ** isn’t  it our mind saying so ** ?? It is certainly not our
> mind saying so. It is the Shruti which is saying so. Reg  ** we all read
> understand the Atman is beyond mind and intellect **, it is just jnAna
> AbhAsa, superficial impression of the mind, without any moorings. The
> understanding just flies off even if some nondescript pseudo scientist
> comes round and declares  ** it is not so **.
>
> We are, since time immemorial, committed to understanding  that what we
> perceieve through the mind is the Truth. This has to be overcome through
> sAdhanAs prescribed in the Scriptures through the help of a Guru.
> Regards
>
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 10:02 AM Jaishankar Narayanan via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Dear Rao ji,
> >
> > The only way to know our real nature is through shastra-pramana - shastra
> > shravana from a Guru and then manana and nididhyaasana with the guidance
> of
> > the Guru.
> >
> > With love and prayers,
> >
> > Jaishankar
> >
> > On Mon, 21 Nov 2022, 09:07 VTCS Rao, <vtcsrao at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Many thanks for the excellent summary. Jaishankar ji.  Much
> appreciated.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > However, I have this question bothering me always. It is our mind which
> > is
> > > helping us to get rational, analytical interpretation of what we read
> and
> > > it is the same mind which perceives the material objects
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > How we can conclude a part of what it perceives is true and other part
> is
> > > not? Though we all read understand the Atman is beyond mind and
> > intellect,
> > > but isn’t it our mind saying so.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Any views on this  from this esteemed elite  group ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards/ VTCS
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> > > Windows
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *From: *Jaishankar Narayanan via Advaita-l
> > > <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > *Sent: *21 November 2022 08:56
> > > *To: *advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > > *Cc: *Jaishankar Narayanan <jai1971 at gmail.com>
> > > *Subject: *Re: [Advaita-l] Advaita-l Digest, Vol 220, Issue 10
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Namaste,
> > >
> > > I listened to the below talk shared in this group a few days back and
> > have
> > > a few points to share.
> > >
> > > The speaker mentions at around 54 min the below
> > >
> > > For traditional advaitins adhyaaropa - apavaada is one of the methods
> the
> > > Upanishads use. For them there are other methods like Kaarana-kaarya
> > > prakriya, avasthatraya-prakriya, panchakosha-prakriya. But Swamiji
> shows
> > > that these different prakriyas are only varieties of
> adhyaaropa-apavada.
> > >
> > > The above is a complete misrepresentation of the traditional teachers.
> In
> > > every prakriya there is adhyaaropa and apavada without which advaita
> > cannot
> > > be established. That is how it was taught to me by my Gurus who are
> > > traditional teachers. Even if you take an introductory book like
> Vedanta
> > > Sara the author details shareera-traya, pancha-kosha, avastha-traya and
> > > then says
> > >
> > >  एवमध्यारोपः ॥ १३६॥ अपवादो नाम रज्जुविवर्तस्य सर्पस्य
> > > रज्जुमात्रत्ववद्वस्तुविवर्तस्यावस्तुनोऽज्ञानादेः प्रपञ्चस्य
> > > वस्तुमात्रत्वम्
> > > ॥ १३७॥
> > >
> > > In kaarana-kaarya prakriya - kaarya is mithya and so negated. The
> > > kaaranatvam also is mithya and so negated. In avasthatraya-prakriya
> > > experienced world is negated as mithya and the status of being a
> subject
> > > for the experiencer is also negated. In panchkosha prakriya too it is
> > > similar.
> > >
> > > Further at around 49 min she says
> > >
> > > Swamiji says the very concept of avidya itself is adhyaaropa. Further
> she
> > > says Avidya is the primary adhyaaropa - mula adhyaaropa - it has no
> > > ultimate ontological status. It is used for a specific purpose (as a
> > > pedagogical tool) temporarily and then retracted after its purpose
> stands
> > > served.
> > >
> > > Now the above applies exactly to moolavidya. In fact with the above
> > > understanding, mithya- ajnaana / moolavidya answers all the ontological
> > and
> > > epistemological questions satisfactorily but an atyanta-asat avidya as
> > > proposed by Swamiji will lead to serious ontological and
> epistemological
> > > issues.
> > >
> > > Further she claims that Swami ji does not accept the classification of
> > > jnaana-adhyaasa and artha-adhyaasa. In that case how jeevanmukti can be
> > > explained is a puzzle. In fact Shankara clearly accepts that the dvaita
> > > perception is there for both jnaani and ajnaani but the jnaani does not
> > > take it as tattva. See for example Br. Up 3.5.1 bhashya
> > >
> > > अस्ति चायं भेदकृतो मिथ्याव्यवहारः, येषां ब्रह्मतत्त्वादन्यत्वेन वस्तु
> > > विद्यते, येषां च नास्ति ; परमार्थवादिभिस्तु श्रुत्यनुसारेण निरूप्यमाणे
> > > वस्तुनि — किं तत्त्वतोऽस्ति वस्तु किं वा नास्तीति, ब्रह्मैकमेवाद्वितीयं
> > > सर्वसंव्यवहारशून्यमिति निर्धार्यते ; तेन न कश्चिद्विरोधः ।
> > >
> > > Finally this idea of avidya being jnaana-abhaava is not new. It has
> been
> > > discussed in different texts and rejected for good reason. But still if
> > > some people find such prakriyas help them understand advaita then good
> > luck
> > > to them. The traditional teaching method is quite anti-fragile and has
> > > answered all kinds of criticism already and so it will continue in
> spite
> > of
> > > some new misguided criticisms.
> > >
> > > with love and prayers,
> > > Jaishankar
> > >
> > >
> > > > Message: 2
> > > > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 07:56:29 -0500
> > > > From: Michael Chandra Cohen <michaelchandra108 at gmail.com>
> > > > To: advaitin at googlegroups.com
> > > > Cc: Advaita-L <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] [advaitin] A talk on avidyA by Manjushree
> > > >         Hegde in YT
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > >         <
> > > > CAAz9PvFxJhMX0eMxTFAwdWYxVw0ikHYQtCcw2wTA1eqKe4OCMg at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > > >
> > > > I  believe this talk is a remarkable presentation on the debate
> between
> > > SSS
> > > > and mulAvidya vada - their historical context, clear statements of
> both
> > > > positions, pro and cons of both positions and a worthy resolution.
> > > >
> > > > Smt. Hegde is a voice to hear, erudite and succinct and a pleasure to
> > > > listen to regardless of your vada.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 6:27 AM 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin <
> > > > advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > praNAms
> > > > >
> > > > > Hare Krishna
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Below is the link.  Please listen to it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2Fsk8-uHvOCxo&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cbff2acd48f13497ea15308dacb702525%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638045979791893863%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5LH0EKc9N65DswzS2gKcwanMV8EnfKjVYagj0pZd%2B64%3D&reserved=0
> > > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2Fsk8-uHvOCxo&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cbff2acd48f13497ea15308dacb702525%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638045979792050100%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4jygT2lkXl2XOjLgToF1ONikdqMztNwdnBG6VB82U%2Fk%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > bhaskar
> > > >
> > > > End of Advaita-l Digest, Vol 220, Issue 10
> > > > ******************************************
> > > >
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