[Advaita-l] [advaitin] A talk on avidyA by Manjushree

[Michael Chandra Cohen]

Jaishankar Narayana ji, Sir - Your comments are valuable manana and I
wonder if you would consider rejoining our Facebook group, if only for this
conversation. I find myself cutting and pasting too much - it is confusing
to follow. 🙏

On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 7:25 AM Michael Chandra Cohen <
michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Jaishankara Narayan, thank you for your reflections in reply. I
> have taken the liberty of sharing your response on Facebook and will, in
> turn, share here worthy responses.
>
> To  your first point, what is mithya? Vedanta Sara is
> staunchly mulAvidyAvada. .The text lists 5 definitions of maya/avidya all
> of which denote some kind of positive, bhavarupa, existent.
> To your second point, a) please translate Brbh 3.5.1. -- b) " Now the
> above (pedagogical tool) applies exactly to moolavidya. " -- moola avidya
> is an existent, Eshwara's Maya Shakti, a positive bhavarupa avidya and
> not simply a teaching tool?
> To your third point, please be specific, how exactly and where has jnana
> abhava been dealt with?
>
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 1:02 AM H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> Namaste.
>>
>> On Mon, 21 Nov 2022, 09:07 VTCS Rao, <vtcsrao at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> <<  How we can conclude a part of what it perceives is true and other part
>> is
>>  not? Though we all read understand the Atman is beyond mind and
>> intellect,
>>  but isn’t it our mind saying so >>,
>>
>> How come, ** isn’t  it our mind saying so ** ?? It is certainly not our
>> mind saying so. It is the Shruti which is saying so. Reg  ** we all read
>> understand the Atman is beyond mind and intellect **, it is just jnAna
>> AbhAsa, superficial impression of the mind, without any moorings. The
>> understanding just flies off even if some nondescript pseudo scientist
>> comes round and declares  ** it is not so **.
>>
>> We are, since time immemorial, committed to understanding  that what we
>> perceieve through the mind is the Truth. This has to be overcome through
>> sAdhanAs prescribed in the Scriptures through the help of a Guru.
>> Regards
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 10:02 AM Jaishankar Narayanan via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear Rao ji,
>> >
>> > The only way to know our real nature is through shastra-pramana -
>> shastra
>> > shravana from a Guru and then manana and nididhyaasana with the
>> guidance of
>> > the Guru.
>> >
>> > With love and prayers,
>> >
>> > Jaishankar
>> >
>> > On Mon, 21 Nov 2022, 09:07 VTCS Rao, <vtcsrao at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Many thanks for the excellent summary. Jaishankar ji.  Much
>> appreciated.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > However, I have this question bothering me always. It is our mind
>> which
>> > is
>> > > helping us to get rational, analytical interpretation of what we read
>> and
>> > > it is the same mind which perceives the material objects
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > How we can conclude a part of what it perceives is true and other
>> part is
>> > > not? Though we all read understand the Atman is beyond mind and
>> > intellect,
>> > > but isn’t it our mind saying so.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Any views on this  from this esteemed elite  group ?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Regards/ VTCS
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> > > Windows
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > *From: *Jaishankar Narayanan via Advaita-l
>> > > <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>> > > *Sent: *21 November 2022 08:56
>> > > *To: *advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
>> > > *Cc: *Jaishankar Narayanan <jai1971 at gmail.com>
>> > > *Subject: *Re: [Advaita-l] Advaita-l Digest, Vol 220, Issue 10
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Namaste,
>> > >
>> > > I listened to the below talk shared in this group a few days back and
>> > have
>> > > a few points to share.
>> > >
>> > > The speaker mentions at around 54 min the below
>> > >
>> > > For traditional advaitins adhyaaropa - apavaada is one of the methods
>> the
>> > > Upanishads use. For them there are other methods like Kaarana-kaarya
>> > > prakriya, avasthatraya-prakriya, panchakosha-prakriya. But Swamiji
>> shows
>> > > that these different prakriyas are only varieties of
>> adhyaaropa-apavada.
>> > >
>> > > The above is a complete misrepresentation of the traditional
>> teachers. In
>> > > every prakriya there is adhyaaropa and apavada without which advaita
>> > cannot
>> > > be established. That is how it was taught to me by my Gurus who are
>> > > traditional teachers. Even if you take an introductory book like
>> Vedanta
>> > > Sara the author details shareera-traya, pancha-kosha, avastha-traya
>> and
>> > > then says
>> > >
>> > >  एवमध्यारोपः ॥ १३६॥ अपवादो नाम रज्जुविवर्तस्य सर्पस्य
>> > > रज्जुमात्रत्ववद्वस्तुविवर्तस्यावस्तुनोऽज्ञानादेः प्रपञ्चस्य
>> > > वस्तुमात्रत्वम्
>> > > ॥ १३७॥
>> > >
>> > > In kaarana-kaarya prakriya - kaarya is mithya and so negated. The
>> > > kaaranatvam also is mithya and so negated. In avasthatraya-prakriya
>> > > experienced world is negated as mithya and the status of being a
>> subject
>> > > for the experiencer is also negated. In panchkosha prakriya too it is
>> > > similar.
>> > >
>> > > Further at around 49 min she says
>> > >
>> > > Swamiji says the very concept of avidya itself is adhyaaropa. Further
>> she
>> > > says Avidya is the primary adhyaaropa - mula adhyaaropa - it has no
>> > > ultimate ontological status. It is used for a specific purpose (as a
>> > > pedagogical tool) temporarily and then retracted after its purpose
>> stands
>> > > served.
>> > >
>> > > Now the above applies exactly to moolavidya. In fact with the above
>> > > understanding, mithya- ajnaana / moolavidya answers all the
>> ontological
>> > and
>> > > epistemological questions satisfactorily but an atyanta-asat avidya as
>> > > proposed by Swamiji will lead to serious ontological and
>> epistemological
>> > > issues.
>> > >
>> > > Further she claims that Swami ji does not accept the classification of
>> > > jnaana-adhyaasa and artha-adhyaasa. In that case how jeevanmukti can
>> be
>> > > explained is a puzzle. In fact Shankara clearly accepts that the
>> dvaita
>> > > perception is there for both jnaani and ajnaani but the jnaani does
>> not
>> > > take it as tattva. See for example Br. Up 3.5.1 bhashya
>> > >
>> > > अस्ति चायं भेदकृतो मिथ्याव्यवहारः, येषां ब्रह्मतत्त्वादन्यत्वेन वस्तु
>> > > विद्यते, येषां च नास्ति ; परमार्थवादिभिस्तु श्रुत्यनुसारेण निरूप्यमाणे
>> > > वस्तुनि — किं तत्त्वतोऽस्ति वस्तु किं वा नास्तीति,
>> ब्रह्मैकमेवाद्वितीयं
>> > > सर्वसंव्यवहारशून्यमिति निर्धार्यते ; तेन न कश्चिद्विरोधः ।
>> > >
>> > > Finally this idea of avidya being jnaana-abhaava is not new. It has
>> been
>> > > discussed in different texts and rejected for good reason. But still
>> if
>> > > some people find such prakriyas help them understand advaita then good
>> > luck
>> > > to them. The traditional teaching method is quite anti-fragile and has
>> > > answered all kinds of criticism already and so it will continue in
>> spite
>> > of
>> > > some new misguided criticisms.
>> > >
>> > > with love and prayers,
>> > > Jaishankar
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > Message: 2
>> > > > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 07:56:29 -0500
>> > > > From: Michael Chandra Cohen <michaelchandra108 at gmail.com>
>> > > > To: advaitin at googlegroups.com
>> > > > Cc: Advaita-L <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] [advaitin] A talk on avidyA by Manjushree
>> > > >         Hegde in YT
>> > > > Message-ID:
>> > > >         <
>> > > > CAAz9PvFxJhMX0eMxTFAwdWYxVw0ikHYQtCcw2wTA1eqKe4OCMg at mail.gmail.com>
>> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>> > > >
>> > > > I  believe this talk is a remarkable presentation on the debate
>> between
>> > > SSS
>> > > > and mulAvidya vada - their historical context, clear statements of
>> both
>> > > > positions, pro and cons of both positions and a worthy resolution.
>> > > >
>> > > > Smt. Hegde is a voice to hear, erudite and succinct and a pleasure
>> to
>> > > > listen to regardless of your vada.
>> > > >
>> > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 6:27 AM 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin <
>> > > > advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > praNAms
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Hare Krishna
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Below is the link.  Please listen to it.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2Fsk8-uHvOCxo&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cbff2acd48f13497ea15308dacb702525%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638045979791893863%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5LH0EKc9N65DswzS2gKcwanMV8EnfKjVYagj0pZd%2B64%3D&reserved=0
>> > > > > <
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2Fsk8-uHvOCxo&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cbff2acd48f13497ea15308dacb702525%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638045979792050100%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4jygT2lkXl2XOjLgToF1ONikdqMztNwdnBG6VB82U%2Fk%3D&reserved=0
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > bhaskar
>> > > >
>> > > > End of Advaita-l Digest, Vol 220, Issue 10
>> > > > ******************************************
>> > > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Archives:
>> > >
>> >
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.advaita-vedanta.org%2Farchives%2Fadvaita-l%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cbff2acd48f13497ea15308dacb702525%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638045979792050100%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zAXTOlVgd%2B8SjUMx2o5rF8WsEqf7gegIPiASxSdGiMY%3D&reserved=0
>> > >
>> > > To unsubscribe or change your options:
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.advaita-vedanta.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Flistinfo%2Fadvaita-l&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cbff2acd48f13497ea15308dacb702525%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638045979792050100%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nezE01nA8RDMj7Nrtb3ZHxiq1ACcbYKiY460rReB%2BoY%3D&reserved=0
>> > >
>> > > For assistance, contact:
>> > > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>> >
>> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
>> > https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>> >
>> > For assistance, contact:
>> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>>
>> To unsubscribe or change your options:
>> https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>
>> For assistance, contact:
>> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>
>