[Advaita-l] ​Re: [advaitin] A talk on avidyA by Manjushree

[Bhaskar YR]

I have interacted with SSS followers who are unfortunately waiting for the perception of dvaita to end and jnaanam to arrive.

praNAms Sri Jaishankar Prabhuji
Hare Krishna

I will come back to you with regard to other issues.  In the meantime can you be specific with whom you have interacted please.  As a matter of fact it is this very issue Sri SSS objected and questioned: 

(a) those who are advocating 'avidyA lesha' for the continuation of dvaita perception by the jnAni, 
(b) those who are propagating things like sadeha mukti is gaUNa and only Videha mukti is 'mukhya'
(c) those who are saying there is a gap between paramArtha jnana and mukti since  these are two separate stages in the jnAni,
(d) And finally those who want to smell the PY in shuddha shankarAdvaita and  declaring that AtmaikatvaM has to be literally experienced in a mystic state like samAdhi in a mind inert state since in waking state even though he is jnAni (jnAni mAtra visheshaNa) he would continue to perceive duality.  

So I really doubt the followers of Sri SSS would say that perception of dvaita has to cease and jnAnam to arrive etc.  complete annihilation of avidyA (niHshesha) is what is needed and jnana is not an outside thing that needs to be accrued afresh!!.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
Bhaskar YR
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Advaita-l <advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> On Behalf Of Jaishankar Narayanan via Advaita-l
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2022 8:55 AM
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Cc: Jaishankar Narayanan <jai1971 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] ​Re: [advaitin] A talk on avidyA by Manjushree

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Dear MCC ji,

I think whoever you are quoting is confusing existence with perception. See how Shankara has defined asat / anrtam / mithya in 2.16 BG Bhasya and Taittiriya - even while being perceived they do not exist independently.
Even in Br Up 3.5.1 Bhasya, Shankara gives the example of salia-phena (water-foam), mrt-ghata (clay-pot) to refute dvaita due to upaadhi. There cannot be any advaita-haani by perception of upaadhi-krita-bheda. Also when you talk of a state of jnaana / jnaani, it is in upaadhi-krita-vyvahaara only. Every traditional advaitin understands that Brahman is not even a knower and so one cannot even talk of a state of knowledge with reference to Brahman. As a jnaani (in a state jnaana) I do not accept the  existence of things different from Brahman even while perceiving it. So what I said perfectly fits with what Shankara means and there cannot be any adverse conclusion. If you maintain it is adverse, then you are making dvaita more real than what it really is. It may be in line with what Swamiji says, as he claims vyakta-adhyaasa is destroyed by jnaanam. I have interacted with SSS followers who are unfortunately waiting for the perception of dvaita to end and jnaanam to arrive.

with love and prayers,
Jaishankar

On Tue, Nov 22, 2022 at 7:21 AM Michael Chandra Cohen via Advaita-l < advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> JN Sir, pranam. I am sure there will be more coming but as for your 
> Brbh
> 3.5.1 quote, the following sentence seems to inform your conclusion 
> adversely, the jnani knows one only without a second, without interior 
> or exterior ...
>
> "We do not maintain the existence of things different from Brahman in 
> the state when the highest truth has been definitely known , as the 
> Srutis say , " One only without a second " , and " Without interior or 
> exterior " ( II . v . 19 ; III . viii . 8 ) . Nor do we deny the 
> validity , for the ignorant , of actions with their factors and 
> results while the relative world of name and form exists ."
>
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 3:25 PM Michael Chandra Cohen < 
> michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I've posted your response on Facebook. Let's see what response we get.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 2:16 PM Jaishankar Narayanan via Advaita-l < 
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Dear  Michael Chandra Cohen ji,
> >>
> >> You ask - what is Mithya?
> >>
> >> Mithya / Asat / Anrtam - these are all ontological terms used by
> Advaitins
> >> and Bhasyakara. For a definition see BG Bhashya 2.16 न असतः 
> >> अविद्यमानस्य शीतोष्णादेः सकारणस्य न विद्यते नास्ति भावो भवनम् 
> >> अस्तिता ॥ न हि शीतोष्णादि सकारणं प्रमाणैर्निरूप्यमाणं वस्तुसद्भवति 
> >> । विकारो हि सः, विकारश्च व्यभिचरति । यथा घटादिसंस्थानं चक्षुषा 
> >> निरूप्यमाणं मृद्व्यतिरेकेणानुपलब्धेरसत् , तथा सर्वो विकारः
> कारणव्यतिरेकेणानुपलब्धेरसन्
> >> । जन्मप्रध्वंसाभ्यां प्रागूर्ध्वं च अनुपलब्धेः कार्यस्य घटादेः 
> >> मृदादिकारणस्य च तत्कारणव्यतिरेकेणानुपलब्धेरसत्त्वम् ॥
> >>
> >> Also Taittiriya Bhasya 2.1
> >> सत्यमिति यद्रूपेण यन्निश्चितं तद्रूपं न व्यभिचरति, तत्सत्यम् । 
> >> यद्रूपेण यन्निश्चितं तद्रूपं व्यभिचरति, तदनृतमित्युच्यते । अतो 
> >> विकारोऽनृतम् , ‘ वाचारम्भणं विकारो नामधेयं मृत्तिकेत्येव सत्यम्’ 
> >> (छा. उ. ६ । १ । ४) एवं सदेव सत्यमित्यवधारणात् ।
> >>
> >> To summarise - that which is a modification, an effect, available 
> >> for sense perception, not separately available from its cause, has 
> >> beginning (not available before) and end (not available after), 
> >> that which after being ascertained in one form, changes from that - 
> >> is mithya, asat , anrtam.
> >>
> >> Now the world is mithya, asat, anrtam and its cause avidya is also 
> >> of
> the
> >> same nature - mithya, asat, anrtam. It cannot be a totally 
> >> non-existent jnaana-abhaava. So Vedanta Sara is correct in 
> >> identfying Maya / Avidya
> as
> >> kinchit bhavarupa - as real and as existent as the mithya / asat world.
> >> Obviously it has no existence from a Paaramaartika drishti / standpoint.
> >> Does avidya as an upadhi not create dvaita? Shankara has already
> answered
> >> this in Br. Up Bh 3.5.1
> >> नामरूपोपाध्यस्तित्वे ‘एकमेवाद्वितीयम्’ (छा. उ. ६ । २ । १) ‘नेह 
> >> नानास्ति किञ्चन’ (बृ. उ. ४ । ४ । १९) इति श्रुतयो विरुध्येरन्निति 
> >> चेत् — न, सलिलफेनदृष्टान्तेन परिहृतत्वात् मृदादिदृष्टान्तैश्च ;
> >>
> >> The essence of my quotation from 3.5.1 bhashya is - The mithya
> vyavahaara
> >> (worldly transactions) due to differentiation is there for those 
> >> who accept things as different from brahman (ignorant) and for 
> >> those who do not
> (the
> >> jnaani). Now according to Swamiji if knowledge destroys 
> >> vyakta-adhyaasa (not just ajnaana) then how can he account for statements like these?
> How
> >> does he even explain Jeevan-mukti?
> >>
> >> How can a non-existent thing be a pedagogical tool? It makes 
> >> immense
> sense
> >> to say moola-avidya is as real as the world appearance and use it 
> >> as a pedagogical tool (adhyaaropa) rather than proposing an 
> >> abhaava. As the world is negated, moola-avidya also is destroyed / 
> >> negated along with it as mithya / anrtam / asat.
> >>
> >> Why ajnaana cannot be jnaana-abhaava has been discussed in 
> >> Swaaraajya Siddhi and in Samkshepashaareeraka. I may have to refer 
> >> the books to get the exact verses.
> >>
> >> with love and prayers,
> >> Jaishankar
> >>
> >> Message: 8
> >> > Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 07:25:49 -0500
> >> > From: Michael Chandra Cohen <michaelchandra108 at gmail.com>
> >> > To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> >> >         <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> >> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] [advaitin] A talk on avidyA by 
> >> > Manjushree
> >> > Message-ID:
> >> >         <CAAz9PvFjjhwR33SJzEhejMZbJbBnjDsO4-nf9-=
> >> > xaKwSYMCZ8g at mail.gmail.com>
> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >> >
> >> > Namaste Jaishankara Narayan, thank you for your reflections in reply.
> I
> >> > have taken the liberty of sharing your response on Facebook and 
> >> > will,
> in
> >> > turn, share here worthy responses.
> >> >
> >> > To  your first point, what is mithya? Vedanta Sara is staunchly 
> >> > mulAvidyAvada. .The text lists 5 definitions of maya/avidya
> >> all
> >> > of which denote some kind of positive, bhavarupa, existent.
> >> > To your second point, a) please translate Brbh 3.5.1. -- b) " Now 
> >> > the
> >> above
> >> > (pedagogical tool) applies exactly to moolavidya. " -- moola 
> >> > avidya is
> >> an
> >> > existent, Eshwara's Maya Shakti, a positive bhavarupa avidya and 
> >> > not
> >> simply
> >> > a teaching tool?
> >> > To your third point, please be specific, how exactly and where 
> >> > has
> jnana
> >> > abhava been dealt with?
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 1:02 AM H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l < 
> >> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >> >
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