[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [advaitin] rope has some problem in rope snake analogy :-)

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste,
There is a typo in the sentence: "It is not like a memory where even during
the recollection one is aware
that one is not perceiving a *memory* and one is merely recollecting what
was
seen. " Please read this to be:

"It is not like a memory where even during the recollection one is aware
that one is not perceiving *the object* and one is merely recollecting what
was
seen."

Regards
Venkatraghavan

On Tue, 26 Dec 2023, 08:38 Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l, <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste Bhaskar ji,
> I meant the locus of the snake is not the mind, it is the place outside.
>
> In my opinion, bhAShyakAra's phrase buddhiparikalpitena, should mean
> buddhyA parikalpitena and not necessarily buddhau parikalpitena, ie, the
> snake is imagined *by* the mind, not that that snake is located *in* the
> mind.
>
> The context of my comment is, as you rightly point out, the
> pratikarmavyavasthA that has been elaborately discussed by post Shankara
> AchArya-s, involving artha and jnAna adhyAsa. I don't think merely that one
> phrase in the bhAShya rules out the entire support structure, when there
> are alternative explanations available.
>
> The reason for the adhyasta object to be postulated to be *outside* is
> because of the perceptual experience "I saw it *there*" and the pravRtti
> towards (shell silver) or away from it (rope snake). Even though after the
> sublation one knows that there is no object outside in reality, one does
> not deny the fact that one had perceived it outside. One denies the
> validity of that perception in the past because there is no corresponding
> object outside in reality.
>
> It is not like a memory where even during the recollection one is aware
> that one is not perceiving a memory and one is merely recollecting what was
> seen. In the adhyAsa, there are certain perceptual elements - ie there is
> sensory contact with the locus of the adhyAsa (samprayoga). It is a product
> of a defect in the mind (doShajanyatva) - which differentiate it from
> memory, which is purely a mental construct, located in the mind.
>
> That is why in the adhyAsa bhAShya, the bhAshyakAra uses the phrase
> smRtirUpah, like a memory, to indicate that the adhyAsa shares with smRti
> the characteristic of arising due to samskAra, but is not smRti itself,
> because it is also doShajanya and has  samprayoga. It is also the reason he
> adds the word paratra in that bhAShya (smRtirUpah paratra
> pUrvadRShTAvabhAsah), to indicate that the object was seen to be elsewhere,
> a particular location outside where something else was present.
>
> On that basis I agree that it is the doSha located in the mind which acts
> as a nimitta for the adhyAsa, but in my view that is not sufficient to make
> the adhyAsa itself located in the mind.
>
> Kind regards,
> Venkatraghavan
>
>
>
> On Tue, 26 Dec 2023, 01:42 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin, <
> advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> > praNAms Sri Venkatraghavan prabhuji
> >
> > Hare Krishna
> >
> >
> > The snake in the rope snake adhyAsa is not imagined "in the mind". Rather
> > the adhyAsa takes place in the locus outside, which leads to the
> > experience, "I see a snake *there *(e.g. in the passageway)". The locus
> > is not the seer's mind, but the location of the rope.
> >
> >
> >
> > Ø     I don’t know the context in which you are saying snake is not
> > imagined in the mind.  But bhAshyakAra clearly says the sarpa is ‘buddhi
> > parikalpita’ ( just one example in chAdOgya : rajjvAdi sarpAdyAkAreNa
> > ‘buddhiparikalpitena’)!!  The rajju-sarpa example has been given to drive
> > home the point that there is no sarpa in rajju and sarpaavayava are mere
> > imagination.  OTOH, brahman (rope) is transactionless as someone else is
> > the nimitta to ‘see’ the sarpa in vyavahArarahita rajju.  And as a
> result,
> > when the rajju is examined properly we conclude that though it appeared
> > like a snake ( at the time of congnition during the abhAva of rajju
> jnana)
> > it was not a snake it was / is  rajju only.  We never ever think in our
> > sublated (bAdhita) jnana that there was sarpa outside apart from our
> mental
> > imagination.
> >
> >
> >
> >    - IMO saying locus is outside for the adhyAsa is clear cut definition
> >    of arthAdhyAsa which is NOT the result of jnAnAdhyAsa and these two
> are
> >    mutually exclusive.  Anyway, will wait for your further elaboration.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> >
> > bhaskar
> >
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