[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: Re: [advaitin] rope has some problem in rope snake analogy :-)

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Venkat Ji,

Reg  //  In my opinion, bhAShyakAra's phrase buddhiparikalpitena, should
mean buddhyA parikalpitena and not necessarily buddhau parikalpitena, ie,
the snake is imagined *by* the mind, not that that snake is located *in* the
mind.

The context of my comment is, as you rightly point out, the
pratikarmavyavasthA that has been elaborately discussed by post Shankara
AchArya-s, involving artha and jnAna adhyAsa //,

I have a different understanding for the context of the phrase
buddhiparikalpitena. Especially since it applies (anvaya) to
मृद्घटाद्याकारेण also apart from सर्पाद्याकारेण. Sri SSS in his translation
cum commentary in kannada on Ch Up Bhashya specifically mentions so in
Footnote 3 (referring to buddhiparikalpitena in the Bhashya) as below
(translation mine)

// This visheshaNa applies (anvaya) to previous term also. kArya also is
budhikalpita. It is never distinct from kAraNa //. The ** previous term**
referred to is मृद्घटाद्याकारेण.

Contextually, in Ch Up, the mantra 6-2-3 // तदैक्षत बहु स्यां प्रजायेयेति
//, सत् (sat) which is One only becomes many while still maintaining its
status as One only. Entire Creation is सत् (sat) only (combination of
Chaitanya/Brahman and avyAkruta). It is vivarta with reference to
Chaitanya/Brahman or pariNAma with reference to avyAkruta. The pariNAma
transformation is of the Clay-Pot type, not Milk-Curd type.

In my understanding, the phrase buddhiparikalpitena does not apply to snake
per se. It refers to bheda buddhi amongst different forms the appearance
could take place instead of the rope (vivarta as in सर्पाद्याकारेण
illustration), namely snake, stick, garland, crack on the ground etc. In
case of clay (pariNAma as in मृद्घटाद्याकारेण illustration), the forms
could be pot, lump of clay etc. While all of them are rope (or clay) only,
buddhi distinguishes them as different entities. This bheda buddhi amongst
the forms instead of unity is addressed by the phrase buddhiparikalpitena.

I hope I have conveyed my understanding meaningfully.

Regards

On Tue, Dec 26, 2023 at 10:08 PM Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste Bhaskar ji,
> I meant the locus of the snake is not the mind, it is the place outside.
>
> In my opinion, bhAShyakAra's phrase buddhiparikalpitena, should mean
> buddhyA parikalpitena and not necessarily buddhau parikalpitena, ie, the
> snake is imagined *by* the mind, not that that snake is located *in* the
> mind.
>
> The context of my comment is, as you rightly point out, the
> pratikarmavyavasthA that has been elaborately discussed by post Shankara
> AchArya-s, involving artha and jnAna adhyAsa. I don't think merely that one
> phrase in the bhAShya rules out the entire support structure, when there
> are alternative explanations available.
>
> The reason for the adhyasta object to be postulated to be *outside* is
> because of the perceptual experience "I saw it *there*" and the pravRtti
> towards (shell silver) or away from it (rope snake). Even though after the
> sublation one knows that there is no object outside in reality, one does
> not deny the fact that one had perceived it outside. One denies the
> validity of that perception in the past because there is no corresponding
> object outside in reality.
>
> It is not like a memory where even during the recollection one is aware
> that one is not perceiving a memory and one is merely recollecting what was
> seen. In the adhyAsa, there are certain perceptual elements - ie there is
> sensory contact with the locus of the adhyAsa (samprayoga). It is a product
> of a defect in the mind (doShajanyatva) - which differentiate it from
> memory, which is purely a mental construct, located in the mind.
>
> That is why in the adhyAsa bhAShya, the bhAshyakAra uses the phrase
> smRtirUpah, like a memory, to indicate that the adhyAsa shares with smRti
> the characteristic of arising due to samskAra, but is not smRti itself,
> because it is also doShajanya and has  samprayoga. It is also the reason he
> adds the word paratra in that bhAShya (smRtirUpah paratra
> pUrvadRShTAvabhAsah), to indicate that the object was seen to be elsewhere,
> a particular location outside where something else was present.
>
> On that basis I agree that it is the doSha located in the mind which acts
> as a nimitta for the adhyAsa, but in my view that is not sufficient to make
> the adhyAsa itself located in the mind.
>
> Kind regards,
> Venkatraghavan
>
>
>
> On Tue, 26 Dec 2023, 01:42 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin, <
> advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> > praNAms Sri Venkatraghavan prabhuji
> >
> > Hare Krishna
> >
> >
> > The snake in the rope snake adhyAsa is not imagined "in the mind". Rather
> > the adhyAsa takes place in the locus outside, which leads to the
> > experience, "I see a snake *there *(e.g. in the passageway)". The locus
> > is not the seer's mind, but the location of the rope.
> >
> >
> >
> > Ø     I don’t know the context in which you are saying snake is not
> > imagined in the mind.  But bhAshyakAra clearly says the sarpa is ‘buddhi
> > parikalpita’ ( just one example in chAdOgya : rajjvAdi sarpAdyAkAreNa
> > ‘buddhiparikalpitena’)!!  The rajju-sarpa example has been given to drive
> > home the point that there is no sarpa in rajju and sarpaavayava are mere
> > imagination.  OTOH, brahman (rope) is transactionless as someone else is
> > the nimitta to ‘see’ the sarpa in vyavahArarahita rajju.  And as a
> result,
> > when the rajju is examined properly we conclude that though it appeared
> > like a snake ( at the time of congnition during the abhAva of rajju
> jnana)
> > it was not a snake it was / is  rajju only.  We never ever think in our
> > sublated (bAdhita) jnana that there was sarpa outside apart from our
> mental
> > imagination.
> >
> >
> >
> >    - IMO saying locus is outside for the adhyAsa is clear cut definition
> >    of arthAdhyAsa which is NOT the result of jnAnAdhyAsa and these two
> are
> >    mutually exclusive.  Anyway, will wait for your further elaboration.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> >
> > bhaskar
> >
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