[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [advaitin] rope has some problem in rope snake analogy :-)

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

> Namaste ji
> I misunderstood what you said. You were distinguishing between sopAdhika
> bhrama and upAsya devatA case.
>
> Actually the question was of the apparent absence of locus in certain
> experiences, which I was looking at in certain cases.
>
> The mAyika sharIra idea would sound more compelling if it were to be
> available for common experience for others like in the case of avatAras
> etc.
>
> Otherwise I see no particular problem in assuming the pratyaxa devatA form
> as a yogaja pratyaxa. The experience remains a valid manifestation of
> Ishvara and confers blessings and guidance etc even if it's not seen by
> others. That's why I said the vRtti may occur and the form may be seen
> 'outside' by not by others; so there need not be any physical object
> corresponding to it else it would be experienced by others as well. In that
> sense, this is like jnAnAdhyAsa, or so I thought.
>
> In the case of avatAras, the 'mAyika' sharIra is seen by all. So although
> both experiences are valid vyAvahArika experiences, is not there a
> difference between them?
>
> Om
> Raghav
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 29 Dec, 2023, 11:55 am Venkatraghavan S, <agnimile at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Raghav ji,
>>
>> This is not what I had in mind. To clarify what I wanted to say, in the
>> case of the upAsya devatA mUrti appearing to the upAsaka, it is not jnAna
>> alone in the absence of artha. Ishvara does take on the form of the upAsya
>> devatA as a result of the upAsana phala. The perception actually takes
>> place in this case, the artha is not physically present, so it must be
>> admitted that an artha is created.
>>
>> As I had said, to the extent that there is perception involved and the
>> object of perception is not present, one can assume the creation of the
>> illusory object. The upAsya devatA's body is a mAyika sharIra created on
>> the spot so that the upAsaka has the perception of his upAsya. There is a
>> vision and the object of the vision.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Venkatraghavan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023, 19:49 Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l, <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes ji
>>> The genuine case of upAsya devatA pratyaxa could possibly be classified
>>> as
>>> jnAnAdhyAsa without arthAdhyAsa. And we could argue that such experiences
>>> are not categorizable as purely sAxI pratyaxa like icchA, dveSha etc
>>> because their (ie upAsya devatA's)  locus is perceived as being outside
>>> oneself.
>>>
>>> Again these experiences of genuine devatA pratyaxa do not suffer bAdha
>>> unlike schizophrenia etc which might produce similar experiences which
>>> are
>>> recognised as delusional, upon taking appropriate medicines.
>>>
>>> Regarding the sopAdhika bhrama (like a crystal appearing yellow due to
>>> the
>>> flower kept next to it), it was pointed out by Venkataraghavan ji (in
>>> agreement with Chandramouliji as per older discussion ) that it's an
>>> example of jnAnAdhyAsa without arthAdhyAsa.
>>>
>>>
>>> Om
>>>
>>> On Thu, 28 Dec, 2023, 10:54 pm V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l, <
>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Thu, Dec 28, 2023 at 7:42 PM Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
>>> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Namaste Raghav ji,
>>> > >
>>> > > On Thu, 28 Dec 2023, 05:13 Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l, <
>>> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > > visual or auditory hallucination (of the type that's
>>> unconstitutional
>>> > as
>>> > > in
>>> > > > schizophrenia a la "The Beautiful Mind" for example)?
>>> > > >
>>> > > I can't say for sure because I don't know how auditory hallucination
>>> or
>>> > > schizophrenia manifest, but to the extent that there is perception
>>> > involved
>>> > > (even illusory) and the object of perception is not present, one can
>>> > assume
>>> > > the creation of an illusory object.
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> > Venkat ji,
>>> >
>>> > This prompts me to say that the situation where  a sagunopasaka
>>> getting the
>>> > upasya devata sakshatkara to be of this nature.  This is private to
>>> him and
>>> > also it disappears in time.  Of course there is no bAdhaka jnanam here
>>> as
>>> > this is not a case of atasmin tad buddhih. Yet the
>>> darshanam/perception is
>>> > had by him for a brief period. It is a result of his long practice of
>>> the
>>> > upasana where the samskaras generated by the upasana solidify and the
>>> > devata appears before him.
>>> >
>>> > regards
>>> > subbu
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > > Regards,
>>> > > Venkatraghavan
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>>