[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [advaitin] rope has some problem in rope snake analogy :-)

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Raghav ji,

The mAyika sharIra is taken by Ishvara as an upAsana phala of the upAsaka.
Therefore, it is visible to only the upAsaka(s) who ha-s(ve) earned the
adRshya phala of Ishvara darshana.

By mAyika, I mean that the body is not a pancha bhUta pariNAma but mAyA
pariNAma.

Such a sharIra taken up by Ishvara is vyAvahArika, but again because it is
not pAncabhautika, it is not subject to the same rules as vyAvahArika jIva
sharIra - it will be only visible to those jIvas who have earned the
spiritual merit to be able to see it. The duration that the body is present
and visible is a function of jIvas' karma phala also. Now, if it so happens
that society as a collective whole has earned that adRshya phala, bhagavAn
takes an avatAra sharIra (again which is mAyika, not bhautika like jIva
bodies) which is visible to many / all. It all depends on the extent of
jIvas' karma phala.

Such a darshana is not doShajanya like in the case of adhyAsa, but
upAsanA-janita-puNya-janya. There is no bAdha of Ishvara sharIra jnAna -
when the puNyaphala has been used up, Ishvara withdraws the mAyika sharIra
(that is not bAdha). The commonality between adhyAsa and this is simply
that there is both jnAna and artha in both cases - because there is
pratyaksha in both cases.

Coming to the case of hallucinations etc, my view is that there is always
some adhiShThAna outside on which the seer perceives his / her
hallucination. On balance, I think there is both jnAna and artha adhyAsa,
like in the case of rajju-sarpa, for hallucinations also. The difference
here is that the doSha that causes these is some deep psychological issues
present in the seer, whereas the snake samskAra, fear of the dark etc may
be the defects that give rise to sarpa bhrama. In both cases, there is some
locus on which the seer sees the illusory object.

Hope that clarifies.

Kind regards,
Venkatraghavan

On Fri, 29 Dec 2023, 02:46 Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l, <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste Venkataraghavan ji
> I also noted what you wrote that the creation of a mAyika form
> (vyAvahArika) which is subjectively experienced is a possibility.
>
> I wanted to distinguish such a form from hallucinations etc. In these well
> documented cases, "forms are seen outside without locii" (even if we take
> this as a given...), yet as you said, as per vedAnta, the creation of the
> object experienced is accepted even in schizophrenia etc. ( like the snake
> is said to have been created by avidyA although here a locus of rope is
> present).  But since there is subsequent bAdha of hallucinations, that
> renders such forms bhrama jnAnam, unlike in the mAyika forms although both
> are subjectively experienced. What set me thinking about jnAnAdhyAsa in
> such cases is that there is no external locus like a rope. It's only the
> past impressions and memories of the schizophrenic that present these forms
> externally.
>
> Thank you.
> Om
>
>
> On Fri, 29 Dec, 2023, 3:50 pm Raghav Kumar Dwivedula, <
> raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Namaste ji
> >> I misunderstood what you said. You were distinguishing between sopAdhika
> >> bhrama and upAsya devatA case.
> >>
> >> Actually the question was of the apparent absence of locus in certain
> >> experiences, which I was looking at in certain cases.
> >>
> >> The mAyika sharIra idea would sound more compelling if it were to be
> >> available for common experience for others like in the case of avatAras
> >> etc.
> >>
> >> Otherwise I see no particular problem in assuming the pratyaxa devatA
> >> form as a yogaja pratyaxa. The experience remains a valid manifestation
> of
> >> Ishvara and confers blessings and guidance etc even if it's not seen by
> >> others. That's why I said the vRtti may occur and the form may be seen
> >> 'outside' by not by others; so there need not be any physical object
> >> corresponding to it else it would be experienced by others as well. In
> that
> >> sense, this is like jnAnAdhyAsa, or so I thought.
> >>
> >> In the case of avatAras, the 'mAyika' sharIra is seen by all. So
> although
> >> both experiences are valid vyAvahArika experiences, is not there a
> >> difference between them?
> >>
> >> Om
> >> Raghav
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, 29 Dec, 2023, 11:55 am Venkatraghavan S, <agnimile at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Namaste Raghav ji,
> >>>
> >>> This is not what I had in mind. To clarify what I wanted to say, in the
> >>> case of the upAsya devatA mUrti appearing to the upAsaka, it is not
> jnAna
> >>> alone in the absence of artha. Ishvara does take on the form of the
> upAsya
> >>> devatA as a result of the upAsana phala. The perception actually takes
> >>> place in this case, the artha is not physically present, so it must be
> >>> admitted that an artha is created.
> >>>
> >>> As I had said, to the extent that there is perception involved and the
> >>> object of perception is not present, one can assume the creation of the
> >>> illusory object. The upAsya devatA's body is a mAyika sharIra created
> on
> >>> the spot so that the upAsaka has the perception of his upAsya. There
> is a
> >>> vision and the object of the vision.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Venkatraghavan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023, 19:49 Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l, <
> >>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Yes ji
> >>>> The genuine case of upAsya devatA pratyaxa could possibly be
> classified
> >>>> as
> >>>> jnAnAdhyAsa without arthAdhyAsa. And we could argue that such
> >>>> experiences
> >>>> are not categorizable as purely sAxI pratyaxa like icchA, dveSha etc
> >>>> because their (ie upAsya devatA's)  locus is perceived as being
> outside
> >>>> oneself.
> >>>>
> >>>> Again these experiences of genuine devatA pratyaxa do not suffer bAdha
> >>>> unlike schizophrenia etc which might produce similar experiences which
> >>>> are
> >>>> recognised as delusional, upon taking appropriate medicines.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regarding the sopAdhika bhrama (like a crystal appearing yellow due to
> >>>> the
> >>>> flower kept next to it), it was pointed out by Venkataraghavan ji (in
> >>>> agreement with Chandramouliji as per older discussion ) that it's an
> >>>> example of jnAnAdhyAsa without arthAdhyAsa.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Om
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, 28 Dec, 2023, 10:54 pm V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l, <
> >>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> > On Thu, Dec 28, 2023 at 7:42 PM Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
> >>>> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> > > Namaste Raghav ji,
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > On Thu, 28 Dec 2023, 05:13 Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l, <
> >>>> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > > visual or auditory hallucination (of the type that's
> >>>> unconstitutional
> >>>> > as
> >>>> > > in
> >>>> > > > schizophrenia a la "The Beautiful Mind" for example)?
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > I can't say for sure because I don't know how auditory
> >>>> hallucination or
> >>>> > > schizophrenia manifest, but to the extent that there is perception
> >>>> > involved
> >>>> > > (even illusory) and the object of perception is not present, one
> can
> >>>> > assume
> >>>> > > the creation of an illusory object.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Venkat ji,
> >>>> >
> >>>> > This prompts me to say that the situation where  a sagunopasaka
> >>>> getting the
> >>>> > upasya devata sakshatkara to be of this nature.  This is private to
> >>>> him and
> >>>> > also it disappears in time.  Of course there is no bAdhaka jnanam
> >>>> here as
> >>>> > this is not a case of atasmin tad buddhih. Yet the
> >>>> darshanam/perception is
> >>>> > had by him for a brief period. It is a result of his long practice
> of
> >>>> the
> >>>> > upasana where the samskaras generated by the upasana solidify and
> the
> >>>> > devata appears before him.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > regards
> >>>> > subbu
> >>>> >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Regards,
> >>>> > > Venkatraghavan
> >>>> > > _______________________________________________
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