[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [advaitin] rope has some problem in rope snake analogy :-)

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

Namaste ji
Thanks for the detailed explanation.

On Fri, 29 Dec, 2023, 8:34 pm Venkatraghavan S, <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Raghav ji,
>
> The mAyika sharIra is taken by Ishvara as an upAsana phala of the upAsaka.
> Therefore, it is visible to only the upAsaka(s) who ha-s(ve) earned the
> adRshya phala of Ishvara darshana.
>
> By mAyika, I mean that the body is not a pancha bhUta pariNAma but mAyA
> pariNAma.
>
> Such a sharIra taken up by Ishvara is vyAvahArika, but again because it is
> not pAncabhautika, it is not subject to the same rules as vyAvahArika jIva
> sharIra - it will be only visible to those jIvas who have earned the
> spiritual merit to be able to see it. The duration that the body is present
> and visible is a function of jIvas' karma phala also. Now, if it so happens
> that society as a collective whole has earned that adRshya phala, bhagavAn
> takes an avatAra sharIra (again which is mAyika, not bhautika like jIva
> bodies) which is visible to many / all. It all depends on the extent of
> jIvas' karma phala.
>
> Such a darshana is not doShajanya like in the case of adhyAsa, but
> upAsanA-janita-puNya-janya. There is no bAdha of Ishvara sharIra jnAna -
> when the puNyaphala has been used up, Ishvara withdraws the mAyika sharIra
> (that is not bAdha). The commonality between adhyAsa and this is simply
> that there is both jnAna and artha in both cases - because there is
> pratyaksha in both cases.
>
> Coming to the case of hallucinations etc, my view is that there is always
> some adhiShThAna outside on which the seer perceives his / her
> hallucination. On balance, I think there is both jnAna and artha adhyAsa,
> like in the case of rajju-sarpa, for hallucinations also. The difference
> here is that the doSha that causes these is some deep psychological issues
> present in the seer, whereas the snake samskAra, fear of the dark etc may
> be the defects that give rise to sarpa bhrama. In both cases, there is some
> locus on which the seer sees the illusory object.
>
> Hope that clarifies.
>
> Kind regards,
> Venkatraghavan
>
> On Fri, 29 Dec 2023, 02:46 Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l, <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Venkataraghavan ji
>> I also noted what you wrote that the creation of a mAyika form
>> (vyAvahArika) which is subjectively experienced is a possibility.
>>
>> I wanted to distinguish such a form from hallucinations etc. In these well
>> documented cases, "forms are seen outside without locii" (even if we take
>> this as a given...), yet as you said, as per vedAnta, the creation of the
>> object experienced is accepted even in schizophrenia etc. ( like the snake
>> is said to have been created by avidyA although here a locus of rope is
>> present).  But since there is subsequent bAdha of hallucinations, that
>> renders such forms bhrama jnAnam, unlike in the mAyika forms although both
>> are subjectively experienced. What set me thinking about jnAnAdhyAsa in
>> such cases is that there is no external locus like a rope. It's only the
>> past impressions and memories of the schizophrenic that present these
>> forms
>> externally.
>>
>> Thank you.
>> Om
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 29 Dec, 2023, 3:50 pm Raghav Kumar Dwivedula, <
>> raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Namaste ji
>> >> I misunderstood what you said. You were distinguishing between
>> sopAdhika
>> >> bhrama and upAsya devatA case.
>> >>
>> >> Actually the question was of the apparent absence of locus in certain
>> >> experiences, which I was looking at in certain cases.
>> >>
>> >> The mAyika sharIra idea would sound more compelling if it were to be
>> >> available for common experience for others like in the case of avatAras
>> >> etc.
>> >>
>> >> Otherwise I see no particular problem in assuming the pratyaxa devatA
>> >> form as a yogaja pratyaxa. The experience remains a valid
>> manifestation of
>> >> Ishvara and confers blessings and guidance etc even if it's not seen by
>> >> others. That's why I said the vRtti may occur and the form may be seen
>> >> 'outside' by not by others; so there need not be any physical object
>> >> corresponding to it else it would be experienced by others as well. In
>> that
>> >> sense, this is like jnAnAdhyAsa, or so I thought.
>> >>
>> >> In the case of avatAras, the 'mAyika' sharIra is seen by all. So
>> although
>> >> both experiences are valid vyAvahArika experiences, is not there a
>> >> difference between them?
>> >>
>> >> Om
>> >> Raghav
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, 29 Dec, 2023, 11:55 am Venkatraghavan S, <agnimile at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Namaste Raghav ji,
>> >>>
>> >>> This is not what I had in mind. To clarify what I wanted to say, in
>> the
>> >>> case of the upAsya devatA mUrti appearing to the upAsaka, it is not
>> jnAna
>> >>> alone in the absence of artha. Ishvara does take on the form of the
>> upAsya
>> >>> devatA as a result of the upAsana phala. The perception actually takes
>> >>> place in this case, the artha is not physically present, so it must be
>> >>> admitted that an artha is created.
>> >>>
>> >>> As I had said, to the extent that there is perception involved and the
>> >>> object of perception is not present, one can assume the creation of
>> the
>> >>> illusory object. The upAsya devatA's body is a mAyika sharIra created
>> on
>> >>> the spot so that the upAsaka has the perception of his upAsya. There
>> is a
>> >>> vision and the object of the vision.
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards,
>> >>> Venkatraghavan
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023, 19:49 Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l, <
>> >>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Yes ji
>> >>>> The genuine case of upAsya devatA pratyaxa could possibly be
>> classified
>> >>>> as
>> >>>> jnAnAdhyAsa without arthAdhyAsa. And we could argue that such
>> >>>> experiences
>> >>>> are not categorizable as purely sAxI pratyaxa like icchA, dveSha etc
>> >>>> because their (ie upAsya devatA's)  locus is perceived as being
>> outside
>> >>>> oneself.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Again these experiences of genuine devatA pratyaxa do not suffer
>> bAdha
>> >>>> unlike schizophrenia etc which might produce similar experiences
>> which
>> >>>> are
>> >>>> recognised as delusional, upon taking appropriate medicines.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regarding the sopAdhika bhrama (like a crystal appearing yellow due
>> to
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> flower kept next to it), it was pointed out by Venkataraghavan ji (in
>> >>>> agreement with Chandramouliji as per older discussion ) that it's an
>> >>>> example of jnAnAdhyAsa without arthAdhyAsa.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Om
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thu, 28 Dec, 2023, 10:54 pm V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l, <
>> >>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> > On Thu, Dec 28, 2023 at 7:42 PM Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
>> >>>> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > > Namaste Raghav ji,
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > On Thu, 28 Dec 2023, 05:13 Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l,
>> <
>> >>>> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > > visual or auditory hallucination (of the type that's
>> >>>> unconstitutional
>> >>>> > as
>> >>>> > > in
>> >>>> > > > schizophrenia a la "The Beautiful Mind" for example)?
>> >>>> > > >
>> >>>> > > I can't say for sure because I don't know how auditory
>> >>>> hallucination or
>> >>>> > > schizophrenia manifest, but to the extent that there is
>> perception
>> >>>> > involved
>> >>>> > > (even illusory) and the object of perception is not present, one
>> can
>> >>>> > assume
>> >>>> > > the creation of an illusory object.
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Venkat ji,
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > This prompts me to say that the situation where  a sagunopasaka
>> >>>> getting the
>> >>>> > upasya devata sakshatkara to be of this nature.  This is private to
>> >>>> him and
>> >>>> > also it disappears in time.  Of course there is no bAdhaka jnanam
>> >>>> here as
>> >>>> > this is not a case of atasmin tad buddhih. Yet the
>> >>>> darshanam/perception is
>> >>>> > had by him for a brief period. It is a result of his long practice
>> of
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> > upasana where the samskaras generated by the upasana solidify and
>> the
>> >>>> > devata appears before him.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > regards
>> >>>> > subbu
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > Regards,
>> >>>> > > Venkatraghavan
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