[Advaita-l] [advaitin] rAma-krishna-shiva-durga etc. are not same in shAstric vyavahAra!!!

[Venkateswaran N E]

Namaskaram, I remember to have seen a YouTube video wherein Puri
Shankaracharya states that as per advaitins only the Panchayatana devatas
and their shastra authorised avatars can be considered as Ishvara.

Regards
Venkateswaran

On Wed, 8 Feb 2023, 13:56 Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l, <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste Bhaskar ji,
> I am afraid I do not understand what your main contention is, or how it is
> different to what I am saying.
>
> I thought I was addressing what was your main issue, but I must confess I
> may have got it wrong.
>
> Are you saying:
>
> 1)  Chaitanya in association with only one name and form is Ishvara? Or
> 2) Chaitanya in association with all names and forms is Ishvara? Or
> 3) Chaitanya in association with some names and forms is Ishvara? Or
> 4) Chaitanya in association with no names and forms is Ishvara?
>
> Regards,
> Venkatraghavan
>
> On Wed, 8 Feb 2023, 07:01 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin, <
> advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> > praNAms Sri Venkataraghavan prabhuji
> >
> > Hare Krishna
> >
> >
> >
> >    - It seems upAdhi sahita brahman making more noise here than
> >    nirupAdhika brahman 😊
> >
> >
> >
> > I only meant that they are only jIva-s in vyavahAra, they are not
> Ishvara.
> >
> >
> >
> > Ø     And IshvarOpAdhi, his sarvajnatva, sarvashatitva too valid in
> > vyavahAra only due to limited adjuncts is it not??  ( vide reference
> > ArambhaNAdhikaraNa bhAshya) If the upAdhi of Ishwara is his own
> > iccha/saMkalpa/ sAdhakAnugrahArthaM why bhAshyakAra said its due to
> > ignorance valid only in vyavahAra?? And he also clarified elsewhere
> > Ishwara’s / brahman’s sarvajnatvam sarvashaktitvaM etc. is svabhAva of
> > brahman (itareya intro) Just wondering.
> >
> >
> >
> > Just because we accept there is jIveshvara bheda and jIva-jIva bheda in
> > vyavahAra, why should we accept  bheda between one form of Ishvara and
> > another form of Ishvara in *all* respects? The bheda between Shiva and
> > Vishnu that we are willing to accept is only in their name, form, pUja
> > vidhi, mantras etc. We do not accept any bheda in their status as
> Ishvara.
> >
> >
> >
> > Ø     IMO, it is because we are differentiating based on upAdhi-s.
> > Ignoring the upAdhi and concentrating and realizing ONLY  Ishwaratva (or
> > paramArtha tattva) does not stop us to see Ishwaravtva ONLY in Ishwara
> > upAdhi.  And when we are saying Ishwaratva being worshipped behind names
> > and forms we knowingly or unknowingly clinging to upAdhi-s only and in
> that
> > upAdhi pradhAna upAsana prakriya, upAsya devata is different so no need
> to
> > see the abheda and argue the sameness even though in their kAraNa svarUpa
> > it is Ishwara since Ishwaratva is one and the same behind ‘everything’.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In fact, if we accept bheda between two forms of Ishvara in all respects
> > in vyavahAra then it is as good as saying there are two Ishvara-s, which
> > would be absurd.
> >
> >
> >
> >    - Yes this would be absurd and the same rule is applicable to
> >    jeeva-jeeva bheda, Jeeva-Ishwara bheda, deva-Ishwara bheda in
> vyavahAra.
> >    For us, the advaitins, it would be shAtra permit way to think like
> that.
> >    Now the question is what are the upAdhi-s that are exclusively worn by
> >    Ishwara by his own eccha/saMkalpa to bless the sAdhaka-s??  Can we say
> >    upAdhi-s ( names and forms) exclusively attributed to ONLY
> paNchAyatana
> >    devata, ok we can include shaNmukha also and nothing else??  I don’t
> think
> >    that would be restrictions that we can impose on IshwarOpAdhi, yO yO
> yAm
> >    yAm tanum bhaktaH ….tAm eva vidadAmyahaM says lord in geeta.  It
> might be
> >    varAha, it might be Narasimha, it might be fish, he might be dwarf
> (vAmana)
> >    or gigantic (trivikrama) what not??  So there is no limitations or
> >    exclusiveness to his attire (upAdhi-s) and at the same time the power
> >    exhibited by the same Ishwara through different upAdhi-s why not he is
> >    different in different names and forms??  The power behind oven and
> >    refrigerator one and the same but serve different purpose through
> different
> >    devices.  Hence upAsya devata, upAsana vidhi, upAsaka all are
> exclusive and
> >    different in their own sphere in the kArya brahmOpAsana.  This is
> what I am
> >    trying to say.  Please let me know where I am erring in this
> >    understanding.
> >
> >
> >
> > We instead say both Shiva and Vishnu are Ishvara only, they have just
> > taken different names and forms for our benefit.
> >
> >
> >
> > Ø     Interestingly when we are trying to prove shiva vishNu abheda we
> > are not so particular to prove along with devi, sUrya, gaNapati abheda.
> > And bhAshyakAra too interestingly makes the categorization of some
> devata-s
> > as tAmasi (vinAyaka, mAtru gaNa,sapta mAtruka etc.) and arAdhana of it
> > restricted to only some set of upAsaka-s.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> >
> > bhaskar
> >
> >
> >
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