[Advaita-l] [advaitin] rAma-krishna-shiva-durga etc. are not same in shAstric vyavahAra!!!

[Venkateswaran N E]

Namaskaram, this is the video I was referring to.

https://youtu.be/XdG-dM142Vo

Regards
Venkateswaran

On Wed, 8 Feb 2023, 14:15 Venkateswaran N E, <venkatne2011 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaskaram, I remember to have seen a YouTube video wherein Puri
> Shankaracharya states that as per advaitins only the Panchayatana devatas
> and their shastra authorised avatars can be considered as Ishvara.
>
> Regards
> Venkateswaran
>
> On Wed, 8 Feb 2023, 13:56 Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l, <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Bhaskar ji,
>> I am afraid I do not understand what your main contention is, or how it is
>> different to what I am saying.
>>
>> I thought I was addressing what was your main issue, but I must confess I
>> may have got it wrong.
>>
>> Are you saying:
>>
>> 1)  Chaitanya in association with only one name and form is Ishvara? Or
>> 2) Chaitanya in association with all names and forms is Ishvara? Or
>> 3) Chaitanya in association with some names and forms is Ishvara? Or
>> 4) Chaitanya in association with no names and forms is Ishvara?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Venkatraghavan
>>
>> On Wed, 8 Feb 2023, 07:01 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin, <
>> advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> > praNAms Sri Venkataraghavan prabhuji
>> >
>> > Hare Krishna
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >    - It seems upAdhi sahita brahman making more noise here than
>> >    nirupAdhika brahman 😊
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I only meant that they are only jIva-s in vyavahAra, they are not
>> Ishvara.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Ø     And IshvarOpAdhi, his sarvajnatva, sarvashatitva too valid in
>> > vyavahAra only due to limited adjuncts is it not??  ( vide reference
>> > ArambhaNAdhikaraNa bhAshya) If the upAdhi of Ishwara is his own
>> > iccha/saMkalpa/ sAdhakAnugrahArthaM why bhAshyakAra said its due to
>> > ignorance valid only in vyavahAra?? And he also clarified elsewhere
>> > Ishwara’s / brahman’s sarvajnatvam sarvashaktitvaM etc. is svabhAva of
>> > brahman (itareya intro) Just wondering.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Just because we accept there is jIveshvara bheda and jIva-jIva bheda in
>> > vyavahAra, why should we accept  bheda between one form of Ishvara and
>> > another form of Ishvara in *all* respects? The bheda between Shiva and
>> > Vishnu that we are willing to accept is only in their name, form, pUja
>> > vidhi, mantras etc. We do not accept any bheda in their status as
>> Ishvara.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Ø     IMO, it is because we are differentiating based on upAdhi-s.
>> > Ignoring the upAdhi and concentrating and realizing ONLY  Ishwaratva (or
>> > paramArtha tattva) does not stop us to see Ishwaravtva ONLY in Ishwara
>> > upAdhi.  And when we are saying Ishwaratva being worshipped behind names
>> > and forms we knowingly or unknowingly clinging to upAdhi-s only and in
>> that
>> > upAdhi pradhAna upAsana prakriya, upAsya devata is different so no need
>> to
>> > see the abheda and argue the sameness even though in their kAraNa
>> svarUpa
>> > it is Ishwara since Ishwaratva is one and the same behind ‘everything’.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > In fact, if we accept bheda between two forms of Ishvara in all respects
>> > in vyavahAra then it is as good as saying there are two Ishvara-s, which
>> > would be absurd.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >    - Yes this would be absurd and the same rule is applicable to
>> >    jeeva-jeeva bheda, Jeeva-Ishwara bheda, deva-Ishwara bheda in
>> vyavahAra.
>> >    For us, the advaitins, it would be shAtra permit way to think like
>> that.
>> >    Now the question is what are the upAdhi-s that are exclusively worn
>> by
>> >    Ishwara by his own eccha/saMkalpa to bless the sAdhaka-s??  Can we
>> say
>> >    upAdhi-s ( names and forms) exclusively attributed to ONLY
>> paNchAyatana
>> >    devata, ok we can include shaNmukha also and nothing else??  I don’t
>> think
>> >    that would be restrictions that we can impose on IshwarOpAdhi, yO yO
>> yAm
>> >    yAm tanum bhaktaH ….tAm eva vidadAmyahaM says lord in geeta.  It
>> might be
>> >    varAha, it might be Narasimha, it might be fish, he might be dwarf
>> (vAmana)
>> >    or gigantic (trivikrama) what not??  So there is no limitations or
>> >    exclusiveness to his attire (upAdhi-s) and at the same time the power
>> >    exhibited by the same Ishwara through different upAdhi-s why not he
>> is
>> >    different in different names and forms??  The power behind oven and
>> >    refrigerator one and the same but serve different purpose through
>> different
>> >    devices.  Hence upAsya devata, upAsana vidhi, upAsaka all are
>> exclusive and
>> >    different in their own sphere in the kArya brahmOpAsana.  This is
>> what I am
>> >    trying to say.  Please let me know where I am erring in this
>> >    understanding.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We instead say both Shiva and Vishnu are Ishvara only, they have just
>> > taken different names and forms for our benefit.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Ø     Interestingly when we are trying to prove shiva vishNu abheda we
>> > are not so particular to prove along with devi, sUrya, gaNapati abheda.
>> > And bhAshyakAra too interestingly makes the categorization of some
>> devata-s
>> > as tAmasi (vinAyaka, mAtru gaNa,sapta mAtruka etc.) and arAdhana of it
>> > restricted to only some set of upAsaka-s.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>> >
>> > bhaskar
>> >
>> >
>> >
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