[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Mandukya bhashya. Ignorance seed in sushupti

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Venkat Ji,

Reg  //  there is no need to take the position that bhAvarUpa avidyA is
*different* to agrahaNa, anyathAgrahaNa and samshaya, for reasons stated
above. As the bhAmatikAra says - न खल्वनन्यत्वमित्यभेदं ब्रूमः, किन्तु भेदं
व्यासेधाम.//,

I will close from my side with just a few clarifications concerning my
understanding.

The quote from bhAmatikAra is an alternative definition (to the one offered
by Sri Bhagavatpada) for  the word ananyatvam understood as AdhyAsika
tAdAtmya (आध्य्सिक तादात्म्य). It is not applicable for ananyatvam
understood as cause and effect which is the topic under discussion.

Yes. AgrahaNa, anyathAgrahaNa and samshaya are manifest forms of unmanifest
bhAvarUpa avidyA. They conform to ananyatvam understood as cause and effect
relationship, as they enjoy  samasattA (same level of Reality) status. Thus
AgrahaNa, anyathAgrahaNa and samshaya are same as bhAvarUpa avidyA.
Regards

On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 10:42 AM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Chandramouli ji
>
> On Sat, 1 Jul 2023, 05:03 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>
>> Reg // How would one describe the cause in terms of the effect - is it
>> the same as the effect? is it different? In advaita we refer to it as
>> tAdAtmya, but it is neither bheda nor abheda //
>>
> The context of the above statement was Bhaskar ji's question if my
> understanding meant that "*bhAvarUpa avidyA .. is neither agrahaNa, nor
> anyathAgrahaNa nor saMshaya but something different in bhAvarUpa*", to
> which I said that I didn't hold they avidyA is different to agrahaNa etc,
> because in one sense it can be said to be the same and in another sense it
> can be said to be different. For which Sri Venkataraman asked how, and I
> made the above remark.
>
> Can you please give any reference to this. In my understanding, Cause is
>> not described in terms of the effect at all. It is not necessary either.
>>
> True, but the context is the above.
>
> Effect is the manifest form of the cause which is always unmanifest. I
>> don’t think tAdAtmya relationship between cause and effect is correct  when
>> both of them enjoy the same level of Reality. samasattA (समसत्ता). In
>> Advaita SidhAnta, only AdhyAsika tAdAtmya (आध्य्सिक तादात्म्य)  is
>> admitted as for example as stated in BSB 2-2-38 copied below.
>>
>> // ब्रह्मवादिनः कथमिति चेत् , न; तस्य तादात्म्यलक्षणसम्बन्धोपपत्तेः ।//
>>
>> //  brahmavAdinaH kathamiti chet , na; tasya
>> tAdAtmyalakShaNasambandhopapatteH //
>>
> Here Shankara is saying that there is the tAdAtmya sambandha between mAyA
> and Brahman and so also between jIva and Ishvara. This is AdhyAsika
> tAdAtmya only. The sambandha between cause and effect that is admitted in
> advaita is such a tAdAtmya (bheda sahiShNu abheda) only. There is a lengthy
> discussion in laghuchandrikA about this. Will look it up when I have time,
> but it is not really germane to the point being discussed.
>
> This pertains to the relationship between jagat and Brahman wherein
>> Brahman is addressed as the vivarta kAraNa for jagat. Brahman and jagat
>> enjoy different levels  of Reality (विषमसत्ता).
>>
>> Regards
>>
>
> As I said AdhyAsika tAdAtmya is not being denied. The naiyyAyika tAdAtmya
> is denied.
>
> Anyway bringing it back to current discussion - there is no need to take
> the position that bhAvarUpa avidyA is *different* to agrahaNa,
> anyathAgrahaNa and samshaya, for reasons stated above. As the bhAmatikAra
> says - न खल्वनन्यत्वमित्यभेदं ब्रूमः, किन्तु भेदं व्यासेधाम.
>
> Regards
> Venkatraghavan
>
>
>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 7:57 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Venkatraman ji,
>>>
>>> How would one describe the cause in terms of the effect - is it the same
>>> as the effect? is it different? In advaita we refer to it as tAdAtmya, but
>>> it is neither bheda nor abheda.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Venkat
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 3:23 PM S Venkatraman <svenkat52 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste Venkatraghavanji,
>>>>
>>>> I find your statement, “ So, I wouldn't say that such a bhAvarUpa
>>>> avidyA is *not* agrahaNa, anyathAgrahaNa and samshaya. Nor would I say
>>>> it is.” a bit baffling. What exactly do you mean by it?
>>>> Many thanks and regards,
>>>>
>>>> Venkatraman
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On 30-Jun-2023, at 7:22 PM, Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> Namaste Bhaskar ji
>>>> Thank you for your kind words.
>>>>
>>>> I agree with your summary of the email I had sent earlier, although in
>>>> (c), the vyavadhAnam in the context of the passage quoted was not limited
>>>> to suShupti alone.
>>>>
>>>> Such a bhAvarUpa avidyA can be said to be the cause of the agrahaNa,
>>>> anyathAgrahaNa and samshaya - because of which those effects are themselves
>>>> *referred* to sometimes as avidyA (e.g. tametam evam lakshaNam
>>>> adhyAsam paNDitAh avidyeti manyante). So, I wouldn't say that such a
>>>> bhAvarUpa avidyA is *not* agrahaNa, anyathAgrahaNa and samshaya. Nor
>>>> would I say it is.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>
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>>