[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [advaitin] Mandukya bhashya. Ignorance seed in sushupti

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Chandramouliji,

On Sat, 1 Jul 2023, 09:46 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>
> Reg  //  there is no need to take the position that bhAvarUpa avidyA is
> *different* to agrahaNa, anyathAgrahaNa and samshaya, for reasons stated
> above. As the bhAmatikAra says - न खल्वनन्यत्वमित्यभेदं ब्रूमः, किन्तु
> भेदं व्यासेधाम.//,
>
> I will close from my side with just a few clarifications concerning my
> understanding.
>
> The quote from bhAmatikAra is an alternative definition (to the one
> offered by Sri Bhagavatpada) for  the word ananyatvam understood as
> AdhyAsika tAdAtmya (आध्य्सिक तादात्म्य). It is not applicable for
> ananyatvam understood as cause and effect which is the topic under
> discussion.
>
It is certainly applicable, so I disagree with your comment. But never
mind, I don't think that is central to the discussion at hand so we don't
have to continue further.

Kind regards
Venkatraghavan

Yes. AgrahaNa, anyathAgrahaNa and samshaya are manifest forms of unmanifest
> bhAvarUpa avidyA. They conform to ananyatvam understood as cause and effect
> relationship, as they enjoy  samasattA (same level of Reality) status. Thus
> AgrahaNa, anyathAgrahaNa and samshaya are same as bhAvarUpa avidyA.
> Regards
>
> On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 10:42 AM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Chandramouli ji
>>
>> On Sat, 1 Jul 2023, 05:03 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>>
>>> Reg // How would one describe the cause in terms of the effect - is it
>>> the same as the effect? is it different? In advaita we refer to it as
>>> tAdAtmya, but it is neither bheda nor abheda //
>>>
>> The context of the above statement was Bhaskar ji's question if my
>> understanding meant that "*bhAvarUpa avidyA .. is neither agrahaNa, nor
>> anyathAgrahaNa nor saMshaya but something different in bhAvarUpa*", to
>> which I said that I didn't hold they avidyA is different to agrahaNa etc,
>> because in one sense it can be said to be the same and in another sense it
>> can be said to be different. For which Sri Venkataraman asked how, and I
>> made the above remark.
>>
>> Can you please give any reference to this. In my understanding, Cause is
>>> not described in terms of the effect at all. It is not necessary either.
>>>
>> True, but the context is the above.
>>
>> Effect is the manifest form of the cause which is always unmanifest. I
>>> don’t think tAdAtmya relationship between cause and effect is correct  when
>>> both of them enjoy the same level of Reality. samasattA (समसत्ता). In
>>> Advaita SidhAnta, only AdhyAsika tAdAtmya (आध्य्सिक तादात्म्य)  is
>>> admitted as for example as stated in BSB 2-2-38 copied below.
>>>
>>> // ब्रह्मवादिनः कथमिति चेत् , न; तस्य तादात्म्यलक्षणसम्बन्धोपपत्तेः ।//
>>>
>>> //  brahmavAdinaH kathamiti chet , na; tasya
>>> tAdAtmyalakShaNasambandhopapatteH //
>>>
>> Here Shankara is saying that there is the tAdAtmya sambandha between mAyA
>> and Brahman and so also between jIva and Ishvara. This is AdhyAsika
>> tAdAtmya only. The sambandha between cause and effect that is admitted in
>> advaita is such a tAdAtmya (bheda sahiShNu abheda) only. There is a lengthy
>> discussion in laghuchandrikA about this. Will look it up when I have time,
>> but it is not really germane to the point being discussed.
>>
>> This pertains to the relationship between jagat and Brahman wherein
>>> Brahman is addressed as the vivarta kAraNa for jagat. Brahman and jagat
>>> enjoy different levels  of Reality (विषमसत्ता).
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>
>> As I said AdhyAsika tAdAtmya is not being denied. The naiyyAyika tAdAtmya
>> is denied.
>>
>> Anyway bringing it back to current discussion - there is no need to take
>> the position that bhAvarUpa avidyA is *different* to agrahaNa,
>> anyathAgrahaNa and samshaya, for reasons stated above. As the bhAmatikAra
>> says - न खल्वनन्यत्वमित्यभेदं ब्रूमः, किन्तु भेदं व्यासेधाम.
>>
>> Regards
>> Venkatraghavan
>>
>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 7:57 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste Venkatraman ji,
>>>>
>>>> How would one describe the cause in terms of the effect - is it the
>>>> same as the effect? is it different? In advaita we refer to it as tAdAtmya,
>>>> but it is neither bheda nor abheda.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Venkat
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 3:23 PM S Venkatraman <svenkat52 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Venkatraghavanji,
>>>>>
>>>>> I find your statement, “ So, I wouldn't say that such a bhAvarUpa
>>>>> avidyA is *not* agrahaNa, anyathAgrahaNa and samshaya. Nor would I
>>>>> say it is.” a bit baffling. What exactly do you mean by it?
>>>>> Many thanks and regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Venkatraman
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30-Jun-2023, at 7:22 PM, Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Namaste Bhaskar ji
>>>>> Thank you for your kind words.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with your summary of the email I had sent earlier, although in
>>>>> (c), the vyavadhAnam in the context of the passage quoted was not limited
>>>>> to suShupti alone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Such a bhAvarUpa avidyA can be said to be the cause of the agrahaNa,
>>>>> anyathAgrahaNa and samshaya - because of which those effects are themselves
>>>>> *referred* to sometimes as avidyA (e.g. tametam evam lakshaNam
>>>>> adhyAsam paNDitAh avidyeti manyante). So, I wouldn't say that such a
>>>>> bhAvarUpa avidyA is *not* agrahaNa, anyathAgrahaNa and samshaya. Nor
>>>>> would I say it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>