[Advaita-l] Free will, time and the Kali Yuga

[Bandaru Viswanath]

On the topic of free-will and *prarabda-karma,*  I would like to provide
two references.

1. A conversation on this exact topic between HH Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati
swami and a disciple. Here is the link to the book having that
conversation.

https://www.vedanta.gr/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/ChandrashekBharati_Dialogues-with-The-Guru_RK-Iyer_ENA5.pdf

The topic starts at page 40. Summary is that free-will exists and can be
exercised by humans.  Just a small quote.

HH: It is not quite correct to say that fate places obstacles in the way of
> free-will. On the other hand, by seeming to oppose our efforts, it tells us
> what is the extent of free-will that is necessary now to bear fruit.


2. Brahmasutra Shankara Bhashya - 4.1.13 and 4.1.14

ब्रह्माधिगमे सति उत्तरपूर्वयोरघयोरश्लेषविनाशौ भवतः — उत्तरस्य अश्लेषः,
> पूर्वस्य विनाशः ।


Shankara establishes that it is not mandatory that the *karma-phala* must
be experienced. He cites the examples of *prayaschitta-karma* that are
ordained by Shastras to get rid of a bad-karma. Of Course he also quotes
shruti that for those who has the *sakshatkara*, all existing and
yet-to-be-experienced karma will be destroyed and no more karma will be
associated with them. All this is by exercise of free-will.

why does Brahman intervene as an avatara to establish a  certai type of
> order, i.e. an order defined by Dharma?


It is not the brahman who is taking the avatara. It is the Ishwara, who
belongs to the vyavaharika-jagat and controls it and has interest in
maintaining it.  Here is what Shankara has to say, as to why Krishna
avarata was taken. (from Bhagavadgita Shankara Bhashya).

स भगवान् सृष्ट्वेदं जगत् , तस्य च स्थितिं चिकीर्षुः, मरीच्यादीनग्रे सृष्ट्वा
>  प्रजापतीन् , प्रवृत्तिलक्षणं धर्मं ग्राहयामास वेदोक्तम् । ततोऽन्यांश्च
> सनकसनन्दनादीनुत्पाद्य, निवृत्तिलक्षणं धर्मं ज्ञानवैराग्यलक्षणं ग्राहयामास
>  द्विविधो हि वेदोक्तो धर्मः, प्रवृत्तिलक्षणो निवृत्तिलक्षणश्च, जगतः
> स्थितिकारणम् प्राणिनां साक्षादभ्युदयनिःश्रेयसहेतुर्यः स धर्मो
> ब्राह्मणाद्यैर्वर्णिभिराश्रमिभिश्च श्रेयोर्थिभिः अनुष्ठीयमानो दीर्घेण
> कालेन | अनुष्ठातॄणां कामोद्भवात् हीयमानविवेकविज्ञानहेतुकेन अधर्मेण
> अभिभूयमाने धर्मे, प्रवर्धमाने च अधर्मे, जगतः स्थितिं परिपिपालयिषुः स
> आदिकर्ता नारायणाख्यो विष्णुः भौमस्य ब्रह्मणो ब्राह्मणत्वस्य रक्षणार्थं
> देवक्यां वसुदेवादंशेन कृष्णः किल सम्बभूव । ब्राह्मणत्वस्य हि रक्षणे
> रक्षितः स्याद्वैदिको धर्मः, तदधीनत्वाद्वर्णाश्रमभेदानाम्


So when Ishwara sees that the dharma meant for maintenance of jagat
(sthiti) as determined by Veda, is not followed, in the interest of the
*sthiti*, Ishwara takes a form. All in vyavaharika jagat only.

Thanks
Viswanath



On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 4:42 AM Vishesh Bhat via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Thank you Kaushik and Jaldhar for mostly dispelling the confusion I had,
> although the nature of mind is such that it is never completely free from
> doubts. I presume that's the difference between someone engulfed by
> materialism and a true bhakta. This is going to be a long and painful
> process.
>
> On Tue, 7 Nov 2023, 20:53 R Krishnamoorthy via Advaita-l, <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Dears
> > Karma is inert ( Karma thath Jadam - Bhagavan Sri Ramana )or it has no
> > free will to act by its own accord.Brahman ( Easwara)is the phala dhatha
> .
> > R.Krishnamoorthy.
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > > On 07-Nov-2023, at 11:50 AM, Jaldhar H. Vyas via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > [Was Re: [Advaita-l] (no subject) Please remember to provide a
> > descriptive subject line.]
> > >
> > >> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023, Vishesh Bhat via Advaita-l wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Namaskara,
> > >>
> > >> I was going through the Mahabharata and came across the passage where
> > Sage
> > >> Markandeya describes the nature of Kaliyuga to Yudhisthira. The
> passage
> > >> seems to indicate an absence of free-will. If Kali Yuga is indeed
> > destined
> > >> to be as described (which also fills me with great dread), then doesnt
> > this
> > >> indicate a complete absence of free will? What is the interpretation
> of
> > >> this?
> > >>
> > >
> > > Interestingly just recently the neuroscientist and philosopher Dr.
> > Robert Sapolsky came out with a new book in which he contends the
> existence
> > of deterministic physical laws means that free will cannot exist.
> > >
> > > Karma leads to the same conclusion.  If your present actions are
> > dependent on the dispositions caused by previous actions in past lives
> then
> > "free" will is not possible.
> > >
> > > But what were the causes of those previous actions?  Actions even more
> > prior to that. And what caused them...?  There is an infinite regression.
> > So you cannot actually say which previous action is _the_ cause of any
> > present action.  In practice you are free to act even if in theory you
> are
> > not.
> > >
> > >
> > >> Another question is about Kalki's appearance and in general about
> > avAtaras.
> > >> If Brahman alone is real, then the notions of good and evil limited to
> > >> vyavahArika reality should not be of any concern.
> > >
> > > Unless you are in that vyavaharika reality which most of are!  But even
> > for the sannyasi who has overcome such notions, he sees all as his own
> self
> > and wants what is best for all as for his own self.
> > >
> > >
> > >> What is the need for this
> > >> intervention in the form of avatAras to uphold Dharma which Krishna
> > >> too talks about in the Gita?
> > >>
> > >
> > > As Kaushik wrote it is for dushta sikshana and shista rakshana.  But
> > this is not done on a whim.  Bhagavan impartially allots the phala on the
> > basis of the karma.  We see that Bhagavan Varaha appeared after the
> > entreaties of Bhudevi who was sinking under the weight of adharma.
> > Bhagavan Nrsimha appeared for Prahlada.  Without the prayers of the
> > meritorious there wouldn't be avataras.  In the Bhagavata Purana it is
> told
> > that by the end of the Kali yuga there will be very few dharmic people
> but
> > the power of their punya will be so great Bhagavan Kalki will appear and
> > inaugrate a new yuga chakra.
> > >
> > >
> > >> Lastly, does this mean that the Vedas too will cease to be known in
> the
> > >> Kali Yuga?
> > >
> > > The popular maxim says that in the Satya yuga the cow of Dharma stands
> > on four legs but by the Kali yuga it is teetering on one.  One leg is
> > definitely an inferior and unwanted situation but it is still not the
> same
> > as zero legs.  Our dharma is called sanatana for a reason.
> > >
> > >> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023, Vishesh Bhat via Advaita-l wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Even at the vyaharika level, if a good person is undergoing suffering,
> > isnt it just his Prarabdha karma?
> > >
> > > Yes.  But see what I wrote above above infinite regress.  You simply
> > cannot say with certainty that outcome Y was due to cause X.
> > >
> > >
> > >> why does Brahman intervene as an avatara to establish a
> > >> certai type of order, i.e. an order defined by Dharma?I think a
> probable
> > >> confusion here is how does Advaita interpret Dharma itself? Is it a
> more
> > >> favourable setup?
> > >
> > > Advaita Vedanta like all other astika darshans takes it for granted
> that
> > Vedic dharma is the natural law.  The actual task of justifying that was
> > taken up more by the Mimamsakas and Nyayaikas.
> > >
> > >> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023, Vishesh Bhat via Advaita-l wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Just to clarify what I mean. If Kali Yuga has a predestined
> progression
> > of
> > >> events and degradation of Dharma, then it seems to imply that whatever
> > be
> > >> the actions of the Jivas, they are destined to suffer.
> > >
> > > That the Kali Yuga is followed by another Satyayuga implies that they
> > are destined to stop suffering no?  There is infinite regress (progress?)
> > to the future too.
> > >
> > > Time keeps on going like this round and round in circles.  Thus Advaita
> > Vedanta teaches you will never get satisfaction from time so concentrate
> on
> > Brahman who is beyond time.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at braincells.com>
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