[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Re: Does the mukta/jnani see the world?

[Sudhanshu Shekhar]

Namaste Bhaskar ji. Raghav ji. V Subramanian ji.


First of all, we should appreciate that DSV is not some alien theory
outside of Shruti and bhAshya. DSV is nothing but a framework wherein
complete identity of waking and dream is postulated, such as by Aitareya
Shruti and other MAndUkya bhAshya statements well known to you.


त्रयः स्वप्ना जाग्रत्स्वप्नसुषुप्त्याख्याः, ननु जागरितं प्रबोधरूपत्वान्न
स्वप्नः । नैवम् ; स्वप्न एव ।


Now, this framework is certainly present in bhAshya everywhere in addition
to the common default framework wherein waking is given more reality to
dream. Therefore, in the default framework, waking Shruti is more reliable
than dream Shruti and waking Shankara is more authentic than dream
Shankara. Is it not? The waking sampradAya is much more required for
liberation than dream sampradAya.


This whole approach of putting more reality to waking is a default
position. ShAstra uses this and postulates shrishTi, Ishwara who does this
srishTi, Ishwara whom we should pray for kArUNyam etc etc. This is a
distinct framework. This is called SDV.


Thus, SDV does the anuvAda of default framework whereas DSV sublates that
default position. It is within Shruti only and not some alien theory.


In DSV, the waking-Shruti though identical to dream-Shruti is capable of
being called a pramANa as it is talking about abAdhita-artha i.e. Brahman.


//Can we approach shankara's PTB with utmost reverence when we are having
the dubious opinion that after all this shankara, shruti and all jnana
bOdhaka vAkya-s are just my own dream's tiger??//


Yes. We can. Despite being my imagination, they are talking about
abAdhita-vastu. Hence, they are reliable just as a mathematics book in
dream explaining 2+2=4 is reliable.


//Don’t we tempted to have some sort of complacency when doing
traditionally prescribed sAdhana??//


If we adhere to DSV, naturally traditionally prescribed sAdhanA will appear
meaningless. Hence, DSV is only for uttama adhikArI. Why do want that
traditionally prescribed sAdhanA should apply to one and all?


//What is that so special in EJV and DSV and what's its significance in the
Advaita sAdhana??  How this theory and intellectual conviction of this
theory would help me to do my sAdhana effectively with utmost reverence to
my guru-Acharya-saMpradAya and veda prescribed rituals??//


The special thing about it is that it is abAdhita-vastu-vishayak. It cuts
the clutter and focuses on the real core issue.


//If this knowledge is a complete zero in my Advaita sAdhana and a
hindrance to me to have shraddha, bhakti in guru-shishya sampradaya,
importance of sampradaya and sAmpradAyik teaching, why at all I should
entertain it??//


If you think that waking sampradAya and waking Shruti is much more reliable
than dream Shruti and dream sampradAya, then by all means, do not entertain
DSV. However, since you do not have any logic to prove the difference of
waking and dream and also because you contradict Aitareya Shruti positing
complete identity of waking and dream, your non-entertaining of DSV is on
account of unreasonable faith and devoid of scriptural backing. It is just
on the basis of unreasonable belief on your default framework.


//How can I develop Ishwara bhakti, sharaNaagati pray for Ishwara kAruNya
when I have the notion that these things are just bla..bla..bla..holds
water ONLY in DSV and when I elevate myself are qualified myself to DSV
these things are just bhrAnti...Can any sane person run after water to
quench his thrust even after realizing it is mere mirage??  I don’t think
so.//


Ok. So again, teaching is not bhrAnti as it is abAdhita-artha-vishayak.
Dream also is a product of avidyA. As long as avidyA subsits, there is no
liberation. Hence, despite DSV being prapancha-satyatva-kshatikarI, it is
not prapancha-bhramatva-gocharatva-kshatikarI. Hence, it is not ultimate
and sAdhanA is required.


//Yes it is not there to assert in public (infact not worthy to assert
within the tradition when mumukshu trying to engage himself in jnana
sAdhana by considering his guru as sAkshAt brahman).//


Worthiness is to be determined by the student. Shruti itself proclaims DSV.
There is mumukshu is DSV also.


//IMHO, theories like this when serving no substantial purpose in practical
sAdhana better to be ignored because of the simple fact that our minds are
tuned in a such a way that it always tries to find exceptions / excuses not
to take anything seriously or in its own stride.//


So, you are postulating uselessness to Shruti. Shruti itself declares DSV
sir. Please don’t forget that.

//I reckon theories like DSV would tempt us to have that type of leniency.
In short, in sAdhana mArga, SDV is more feasible or a realistic practical
approach for our AtmOnnati and I firmly believe most of the sAdhana /means
are based on SDV only and DSV is just a theory. //


It completely depends on the adhikArI. What you state is applicable to a
manda adhikArI who may go into leniency etc. For uttama adhikArI, DSV may
not postulate requirement of agnihotra etc and Ishwara kArUNyam etc but may
recommend 24*7 awareness, which to me, is a formidable ask and leaves no
scope of leniency.


Sum and substance is, DSV is ingrained in Shruti. It is authentic. It is
experiential and logical.



On Mon, Nov 20, 2023 at 1:27 PM Bhaskar YR via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> praNAms Sri Raghava prabhuji
> Hare Krishna
>
> In EJV, the experience of Guru and sAmpradAya are regarded as necessary
but they are given pratibhasika status like the dream tiger example.
>
> >  I am sorry I failed to understand this prAtibhAsika satyatvaM in EJV
and role of intellectual conviction of this eka jeeva in the 'practical'
Advaita jnana sAdhana.  Can we approach shankara's PTB with utmost
reverence when we are having the dubious opinion that after all this
shankara, shruti and all jnana bOdhaka vAkya-s are just my own dream's
tiger??  Don’t we tempted to have some sort of complacency when doing
traditionally prescribed sAdhana??  What is that so special in EJV and DSV
and what's its significance in the Advaita sAdhana??  How this theory and
intellectual conviction of this theory would help me to do my sAdhana
effectively with utmost reverence to my guru-Acharya-saMpradAya and veda
prescribed rituals??  If this knowledge is a complete zero in my Advaita
sAdhana and a hindrance to me to have shraddha, bhakti in guru-shishya
sampradaya, importance of sampradaya and sAmpradAyik teaching, why at all I
should entertain it??  How can I develop Ishwara bhakti, sharaNaagati pray
for Ishwara kAruNya when I have the notion that these things are just
bla..bla..bla..holds water ONLY in DSV and when I elevate myself are
qualified myself to DSV these things are just bhrAnti...Can any sane person
run after water to quench his thrust even after realizing it is mere
mirage??  I don’t think so.
>
> Personally I am comfortable with DSV as a nididhyAsana-predominant
approach rather than as something to assert in public.
>
> >  Yes it is not there to assert in public (infact not worthy to assert
within the tradition when mumukshu trying to engage himself in jnana
sAdhana by considering his guru as sAkshAt brahman).  IMHO, theories like
this when serving no substantial purpose in practical sAdhana better to be
ignored because of the simple fact that our minds are tuned in a such a way
that it always tries to find exceptions / excuses not to take anything
seriously or in its own stride.   I reckon theories like DSV would tempt us
to have that type of leniency.  In short, in sAdhana mArga, SDV is more
feasible or a realistic practical approach for our AtmOnnati and I firmly
believe most of the sAdhana /means are based on SDV only and DSV is just a
theory.
>
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> bhaskar
>
>
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