[Advaita-l] avidyA and mind in samAdhi

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

On Mon, 16 Oct, 2023, 1:26 pm Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l, <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> //The answer to all questions lies in the Panchadashi and commentary, as I
> see it.//
>
> Certainly. I will go through it more carefully.
>
>  //and the a-prateetih of mUla ajnana in samadhi (where no ajnana nAsha has
> happened) which is only a potential state;//
>
> Yes. This is the matter of discussion. When there is no ajnAna-nAsha in
> samAdhi; there is non-perception of ajnAna == can it be said that ajnAna is
> not there?
>
> That there is absence of perception of ajnAna in samAdhi is accepted. MS
> says also - there is absence of avidyAkArA-avidyA-vritti



Sri MS accepts the three types of avidyA vRttis in suShupti and is only
doing a prima facie contrast with samadhi involving the "final" iterations
of akhaNDAkAra vRttis after which avidyA bIja is destroyed completely
(except of course for the harmless burnt-seed type of lesha avidyA).

That way the "earlier" iterations can co-exist with even the "non-lesha
type of avidyA".

That's probably why in kena bhAShya on pratibodha-viditam matam, only the
final/last iteration of such nididhyAsanam vRttis has been edified as
"GYAnam".

Om




.
>
>
>
>
> But this absence of perception of avidyA does not imply absence of avidyA.
> Had this been so, instead of saying that there is absence of
> avidyAkArA-avidyA-vritti in samAdhi, it would have been said -- how can you
> perceive avidyA in samAdhi when the object avidyA itself is not there.
>
> Regards.
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 12:46 PM V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear Sudhanshu ji,
> >
> > The answer to all questions lies in the Panchadashi and commentary, as I
> > see it. It addresses both the situations: mUlavidyA naAsha, in case of
> the
> > samadhi where aparoksha jnanam is achieved and the a-prateetih of mUla
> > ajnana in samadhi (where no ajnana nAsha has happened) which is only a
> > potential state; the prateetih thereof in the no-samadhi states.
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 12:34 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
> > sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Namaste V Subramanian ji.
> >>
> >> Many thanks for the patient reply.
> >>
> >> //They are the same.//
> >>
> >> I am unable to understand as to how can mUlAvidyA be absent in samAdhi?
> >> It cannot vanish in thin air. Like mind merges in avidyA in sushupti and
> >> comes back in waking, it should merge into something, if it were to come
> >> back post-samAdhi.
> >>
> >> Since leshAvidyA continues even after culmination of akhandAkArA-vritti,
> >> can it be said that the absence of tattva-agrahaNa-rUpA-avidyA in
> samAdhi
> >> is basically merger thereof in leshAvidyA?
> >>
> >> //Tattva agrahana rupa avidya is not there since the akhandAkAra vritti
> >> is accepted. This is AtmA/BrahmakAra vritti.In its presence 'I do not
> know
> >> the Self' kind of ignorance can't coexist. That is the purport of the
> >> Panchadashi verse and the commentary.//
> >>
> >> True. But being the fundamental entity, it cannot spring back from
> >> non-existence. Can it?
> >>
> >> //The causal seed is not completely destroyed in the case of the need
> for
> >> more akhandAkAra vritti sessions. Such a situation is admitted by
> Shankara
> >> in the BSB 4.1.2:
> >>
> >> यस्य तु न एषोऽनुभवो द्रागिव जायते, तं प्रति अनुभवार्थ एव
> >> आवृत्त्यभ्युपगमः । तत्रापि न तत्त्वमसिवाक्यार्थात् प्रच्याव्य आवृत्तौ
> >> प्रवर्तयेत् ।  For such of those aspirants such an experience has not
> >> occurred instantaneously, the need for reiteration is required for
> >> generating that experience...//
> >>
> >> Yes. I am talking of this situation only. If causal seed (other than
> >> leshAvidyA which is destroyed only on death) is not destroyed, it has to
> >> merge somewhere and come back. Isn't it?
> >>
> >> Moreover, if mind is there in samAdhi; isn't mUlAvidyA (other than
> >> leshAvidyA) stands posited ipso facto!!
> >>
> >> Regards.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 12:24 PM V Subrahmanian <
> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 11:33 AM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
> >>> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Namaste V Subramanian ji.
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. Is there a difference between kAraNa sharIra and mUlAvidyA?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Namaste.
> >>>
> >>> They are the same.
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2. If many sessions of nirvikalpaka samAdhi are needed for destruction
> >>>> of mUlAvidyA, let us talk about the initial few sessions. If
> >>>> tattva-agrahaNa-rUpA avidyA is not there, then how does it come back
> after
> >>>> samAdhi? It is the basic seed. It cannot merge into something and come
> >>>> back, like mind merges in avidyA in sushupti and comes back during
> waking
> >>>> and dream.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Tattva agrahana rupa avidya is not there since the akhandAkAra vritti
> is
> >>> accepted. This is AtmA/BrahmakAra vritti.In its presence 'I do not
> know the
> >>> Self' kind of ignorance can't coexist. That is the purport of the
> >>> Panchadashi verse and the commentary.
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 3. LeshAvidyA remains post jnAna is completely accepted. I was trying
> >>>> to understand about other AkArAs of mUlAvidyA. If the causal seed is
> not
> >>>> there in samAdhi, how will it come back!
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> The causal seed is not completely destroyed in the case of the need for
> >>> more akhandAkAra vritti sessions. Such a situation is admitted by
> Shankara
> >>> in the BSB 4.1.2:
> >>>
> >>> यस्य तु न एषोऽनुभवो द्रागिव जायते, तं प्रति अनुभवार्थ एव
> >>> आवृत्त्यभ्युपगमः । तत्रापि न तत्त्वमसिवाक्यार्थात् प्रच्याव्य आवृत्तौ
> >>> प्रवर्तयेत् ।  For such of those aspirants such an experience has not
> >>> occurred instantaneously, the need for reiteration is required for
> >>> generating that experience...
> >>>
> >>> regards
> >>> subbu
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 10:05 AM V Subrahmanian <
> >>>> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Dear Sudhanshu ji,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On this //Actually, it is saying, there is no "appearance" of
> sushupti
> >>>>> (avidyA) in samAdhi and NOT "there is no sushupti (avidyA) in
> samAdhi".//
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We can see that the commentary, following the verses, is delineating
> >>>>> on the vyaavrtti - anuvritti logic. It says: तेषु परस्परं
> >>>>> व्यावर्त्यमानेष्वपि... this effectively is the 'absence' of the two
> of the
> >>>>> three bodies in a given state. Therefore in Samadhi the kAraNa
> shrira,
> >>>>> sleep, is not there.  But the Atman is there in all states.  As
> pointed out
> >>>>> earlier, the tattva agrahana rUpa avidyA is not there in
> akhandakaravritti.
> >>>>> That one will have to have many more such sessions in order to
> become a
> >>>>> sthita prajna is not denied. That is another matter. By definition
> the
> >>>>> samadhi as spoken of by Swami Vidyaranya in the cited verse is a
> situation
> >>>>> where that basic avidya is not there.  That the lesha avidya that is
> >>>>> required to bring him out of samadhi and continue in vyavahara, till
> death,
> >>>>> is admitted and you have acknowledged that as well.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> regards
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 3:02 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
> >>>>> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Namaste V Subramanian ji,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks for the reply.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I went through the Panchadashi shloka and the tIkA thereupon.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> //Here he says 'In Samadhi there is no Sushupti but Atman is
> present.
> >>>>>> This is anvaya. The vyatireka is: when Atman is shining, sushupti
> is not
> >>>>>> present. //
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Actually, it is saying, there is no "appearance" of sushupti
> (avidyA)
> >>>>>> in samAdhi and NOT "there is no sushupti (avidyA) in samAdhi".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The non-appearance of avidyA in samAdhi is well accepted. However,
> >>>>>> that is explained not due to absence of avidyA, but due to absence
> of
> >>>>>> avidyAkArA-avidyA-vritti. In avidyA-pratIti-vichAra of
> advaita-siddhi, MS
> >>>>>> says:-
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> न चैवं कदाचिदविद्याया अप्रतीत्यापत्तिः; इष्टापत्तेः, समाधौ
> >>>>>> तथाभ्युपगमात् ।
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Is there any clear articulation anywhere that avidyA is not present
> >>>>>> during samAdhi. Because if avidyA is not present during samAdhi,
> then one
> >>>>>> will not be able to wake up from samAdhi.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> //Since it is admitted that the Tattva agrahana rupa avidya is
> >>>>>> present in all three states, in Samadhi when Akhandakara vritti is
> there,
> >>>>>> that avidya is not present. The Ramakrishna Teeka for the above
> verse where
> >>>>>> he says 'ajnana is not there in samadhi', can be seen here:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> https://archive.org/details/panchadashi-ramkrishna/page/n57/mode/2up//
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Does attaining nirvikalpaka-samAdhi once leads to destruction of
> >>>>>> avidyA?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> //Of course, the mind, which is the instrument for even attaining
> >>>>>> Samadhi, has to be admitted to be present. Also, the nascent form of
> >>>>>> avidya/mind are admitted to be present even during samadhi, since
> they have
> >>>>>> not destroyed so that the post-samadhi life of the Jnani requires
> this
> >>>>>> non-binding form (lesha/vasana) of avidya is the one that sustains
> the
> >>>>>> body-mind of the Jnani till the fall of the body.//
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This is well understood.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Additional Commissioner of Income-tax,
> >>>> Pune
> >>>>
> >>>> sudhanshushekhar.wordpress.com
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Additional Commissioner of Income-tax,
> >> Pune
> >>
> >> sudhanshushekhar.wordpress.com
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Additional Commissioner of Income-tax,
> Pune
>
> sudhanshushekhar.wordpress.com
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