[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [advaitin] Understanding Srimad Bhagavad Gita from the perspectives of Visishtadvaita and Advaita - an exposition

[Vikram Jagannathan]

Namaskaram Shri Suresh ji,

My response is tangential to your email. Notwithstanding your comments, I
would like to once more clarify my intent with this article.

My intent here is not to find a common ground between Advaita &
Visishtadvaita or identify ways how the two systems can be brought closer
by approximating certain concepts. I do not wish to dilute either
sampradhayam even by an iota. My intent is to demonstrate that “Advaita
does not stand in conflict against Visishtadvaita''. In other words, the
criticisms against Advaita are actually misplaced. This does not mean that
there is a bi-directional 1:1 mapping between the two systems. In fact,
there simply doesn’t exist one such mapping.

Certain fundamental concepts of Advaita - such as the one immutable
homogenous Brahman, from the perspective of ignorance, appears as the trio
of Isvara, Jiva, Jagat. On transcending this ignorance, there is then the
realization of distinctionless attributeless true nature of one’s own Self
/ Atman / Brahman - is just not acceptable to other sampradhayams. Any
reconciliation will have to dilute this principle. This is Shri Subbu ji’s
point too when he said that certain concepts of Advaita are simply not
reconcilable with other systems. I am 100% in agreement with his view and I
am just trying the other directional alignment (stating that
non-restrictive VA concepts have an alignment within Advaita and not that
the Advaita concepts all have an alignment with VA).

In the article, by stating Advaita perspective, which stands different from
VA perspective, the context is set to understand SBG unambiguously in a
comparative study. However, the next logical question is that if it is said
the Advaita perspective is correct, and since it is different from VA
perspective, does it mean the VA perspective is incorrect? The answer is
that it is not so. From a certain perspective, it is seen that VA concepts
are actually aligned with Advaita teachings as well. This corresponds to
the second part of the article on alignment. Therefore one isn’t
necessarily wrong by just following either sampradhayam. Adhikari bheda
(which I loosely termed as one’s temperament) comes into play in following
the appropriate system.

I am sharing more details of my intent, only to avoid any misunderstandings
or confusions as to the purpose of the article itself. With the intention
clarified, I am hoping to receive positive guidance, and feedback for any
corrections, from learned members. It is also for my self-reflection on
some of the deeper nuances of Advaita.

Dhanyosmi!

with humble prostrations,
Vikram

On Sat, Jan 27, 2024 at 10:20 PM V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Suresh ji,
>
> Thanks for your nice words. The Vaishnava concept of jiva being of aNu
> size is what comes in the way of a desired reconciliation.
>
> Yes, if esoteric meaning is preferred to literal one, then there can be a
> lot of reconciliation. But the question is how many are ready to do that.
>
> Warm regards
> subbu
>
> On Sun, 28 Jan 2024, 4:17 am suresh srinivasamurthy, <
> sureshsmr at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Sri Subbu-ji,
>>
>> <
>> The liberated do not travel to any other place/loka, for any such travel
>> will imply that the jiva is still in samsara. Since Brahman is infinite,
>> the jnani who has realized his identity with Brahman, also being the
>> Infinite Brahman alone, does not go anywhere upon death.  For, Brahman is
>> not a finite place to be reached/attained.  If Brahman were located in a
>> place then Brahman, being no different from any formed object, will have to
>> have a beginning and end, and be dependent on something else, be made of
>> parts, and ephemeral, and a produced one.  Brahman can never be of this
>> nature.  Thus, the ‘attainment’ of Brahman cannot be involving any locating
>> in some other place.
>>
>> The position of the VA on this matter cannot be compromised. Hence on
>> this crucial issue there can't be a reconciliation between the two systems.
>> >
>>
>> Personally, I agree with Vikram-ji and think that reconciliation is
>> possible and infact it is already there though it is not openly accepted by
>> staunch followers :)
>>
>> This is because Brahman is accepted as the Self in VA also which is all
>> pervading and so not limited to any particular place. Vishnu is accepted as
>> jnAnamaya and antaryAmi Atma (Self) and oneness among all the infinite
>> forms of Vishnu is accepted in Dvaita also. In all traditions, Brahman is
>> always the indwelling sarvAtma / paramAtma (universal Self) and is never
>> anAtma. Existence of jagat as Brahma shareera is acceptable to Sri
>> Shankara as per the Prashnopanishad 6-8 bhashya and Jagatshareeratva of
>> Brahman does not limit the infinite nature of Brahman and helps to
>> establish sanatanatva of dharma and guru-shishya parampara which is common
>> across all sampradaya. Sri Ramanuja also accepts validity of moksha in the
>> form of kaivalya.
>>
>> Though "going to Vaikunta" loka and serving the Lord is widely accepted
>> in VA, there is another level of realization where the Lord alone is seen
>> and nothing else. Vaikunta is also the name of the Lord and so the
>> "travel" of mukta jiva to attain the Lord is not physical but an inward
>> "spiritual journey" which could be interpreted as constant
>> experience/darshan of the Lord in such a way that nothing else is seen. Sri
>> TiruppAnAlvar describes this in his AmalanAdipiran prabandham as
>> "Yennamudinai kanda kangal mattondrun kAnAve". ( Having seen my beloved
>> Lord my eyes are not seeing anything ). Though this is not the same as
>> Advaitic realization it is still very close.
>>
>> Brahman is accepted as the paramAtma / SarvAtma in all sampradAya and
>> shareerAtma bheda between jagat and Brahman/Self is also very experiential.
>> So, I would consider that as a common ground that essentially reconciles
>> all traditional views. IMHO all different traditions compliment each other
>> and helps to experience Truth/Brahman in different ways. All differences
>> are only superficial.
>>
>> Namaste,
>> Suresh
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* advaitin at googlegroups.com <advaitin at googlegroups.com> on behalf
>> of V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Friday, January 26, 2024 7:55 AM
>> *To:* advaitin at googlegroups.com <advaitin at googlegroups.com>
>> *Cc:* A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [advaitin] Understanding
>> Srimad Bhagavad Gita from the perspectives of Visishtadvaita and Advaita -
>> an exposition
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 12:27 PM Vikram Jagannathan <vikkyjagan at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Namaskaram Shri Subbu ji,
>>
>> Agreeing on the difference. I will defer to Shri Krishna Kashyap ji for
>> sharing more details on SriVaikunta at maha-pralaya. I have heard some
>> conflicting theories and would rather withhold my opinion due to lack of
>> clarity & understanding.
>>
>>
>> Yes, long ago I had arrived at this conclusion:  How does advaita view
>> the other two schools? The answer is: The sadhana involving strong
>> vairagyam towards the world and pure devotion to Bhagavan alone that is
>> seen in the other two schools will mean to the Advaitin that they will go
>> to Brahma loka.  The idea that they will get Advaita jnanam there will not
>> be accepted by them but the Advaitin would place the Smarta sagunopasaka in
>> line with the sadhakas of the other two schools. The sagunopasaka of
>> Advaita also reaches Brahma loka.  Up till this the sadhakas of the other
>> schools can be accommodated in Advaita's krama mukti path.
>>
>> In Advaitasiddhi there is a section where the forms and lokas of Bhagavan
>> have been considered and finally concluded that these are not absolutely
>> real and eternal.  There the commentary Laghuchandrika says that 'there is
>> no pramana for the existence of an uncreated a-bautika (non-elemental)
>> vaikuntha.'
>>
>> warm regards
>> subbu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> However, the point I am trying to communicate is that the Advaita concept
>> of krama-mukti is aligned with VA at least until the maha-pralaya state and
>> therefore there should not be any reason for Visishtadvaitins for a
>> conflict or criticism on this point of moksha marga against Advaita. In
>> other words, from VA’s perspective, Advaita does not stand against VA at
>> least until maha-pralaya. Of course Advaita goes a step further in the form
>> of sadyo-mukti, but this should ideally not be a valid topic of criticism
>> either since VA doesn’t believe in this concept or its logic to begin with.
>>
>> with humble prostrations,
>> Vikram
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 12:12 AM V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Vikram ji,
>>
>> The krama mukti of Advaita involves getting the Advaita aham brahmasmi
>> jnanam in that Brahma loka and remaining there till maha pralaya when that
>> loka also will perish upon which the jivas there who are Jnanis, will
>> become videha muktas as per advaita.  The position of VA is that in that
>> ultimate scenario the muktas will be in Vaikuntha, with individual
>> identities. This is because jiva-jiva and jiva-Ishwara bheda is absolutely
>> real in VA.
>>
>> warm regards
>> subbu
>>
>>
>>
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