[Advaita-l] [advaitin] RE: pratiyogI-jnAna being mandatory for abhAva-jnAna

[Michael Chandra Cohen]

asm Sudhanshuji,

Are you ignoring SSSS's refutation? There is no proper appearance in time
or space to require a previous positive pratiyogin. There is simply right
knowledge dismissing wrong knowledge and that "At the time of the
cancelling cognition, the question of whether the world does or’ does not
exist in the Absolute becomes totally irrelevant."

Please do consult the previously cited links.
Regards, mcc

On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 2:37 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaste Michael ji.
>
> Let us not go to avidyA-vidyA debate here. We should first crystallise as
> to whether it is possible to have x-abhAva-jnAna without x-jnAna.
>
> If I ask Mr A - do you have tuoli in your home?
>
> He cannot answer unless he knows what is a tuoli.
>
> So he would counter question - what is a tuoli.
>
> Such normal usual course of daily affairs proves without a doubt that
> x-jnAna is a prerequisite of x-abhAva-jnAna.
>
> And to the best of my knowledge, all branches of Indian Philosophy accept
> this basic concept.
>
> I just wish to know if there is any branch of Indian Philosophy which does
> not accept this. I would read their arguments.
>
> As for SSSS Ji's view, we may consider it some other time. He has taken up
> this issue and tried to argue that x-jnAna is not required for
> x-abhAva-jnAna. However, that is not correct in my opinion.
>
> Regards.
>
> On Mon, 29 Jul, 2024, 15:24 Michael Chandra Cohen, <
> michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sudhanshu Shekharji, pranam.
>>
>> Often you have raised this pratiyogin objection against an abhavarupa
>> avidya however it is based on some kind of existential positive abhava
>> entity as opposed to a mere absence of knowledge. That seems to be an
>> original argument made in the Ishta Siddhi and apparently repeated in the
>> Vivarana but is addressed by SSSS in chapter 12 of his Vedanta Prakriya
>> Pratyabinna/The Method of the Vedanta. SSSSji first cites the original
>> objection and then offers the correct view with support from Sankara in
>> Gita 13.26.
>>
>> "The illusory manifestation is totally non-existent in any form or at any
>> time apart from the place, time and form in which it was perceived. And at
>> the time of cancellation its whole being is seen to have been exhausted in
>> its manifestation in that way at that place."
>>
>> This is explained by Bhasyakara as the correction of an apparent
>> conjunction between snake and rope by the negation of the apparency upon
>> the only ever existing rope without the possibility of any kind of positive
>> ignorance being assumed
>>
>> I have simplified but hope it will not be taken as a substitute for
>> SSSSji's clarification. Here are links to the exact pages for more
>> clarification and depth regarding this issue. Kindly consider
>>
>> Regards, MCC
>>
>>
>> https://archive.org/details/the-method-of-the-vedanta-a-critical-account-of-the-advaita-tradition-swami-satchidanandendra/page/n845/mode/2up
>>
>> https://archive.org/details/the-method-of-the-vedanta-a-critical-account-of-the-advaita-tradition-swami-satchidanandendra/page/n791/mode/2up?view=theater
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 6:49 AM 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin <
>> advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> praNAms Sri Sudhanshu prabhuji
>>>
>>> Hare Krishna
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would like to know this from avidyA-vidyA perspective.  Hence I asked
>>> that doubt.  To talk anything about Atma jnAna we should have had knowledge
>>> about it  ‘then’ and feeling the absence of the same ‘now’.  If this query
>>> not related /applicable to this then I have least interest in knowing
>>> anything further.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>>>
>>> bhaskar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The question is very simple BhAskar ji. In order to know whether there
>>> is abhAva of ushkalanta in the room, one has to first know what is
>>> ushkalanta.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So, x-abhAva-jnAna in the room requires x-jnAna.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is what advaita teachings holds.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I was interested to know if any other Indian Philosophy branch holds
>>> contrary view.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>