[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Kilogram not yet concluded after all

[H S Chandramouli]

Dear Dennis Ji,

Reg  //  I am bound to ask: why, then, is not everyone enlightened? //.

That is the issue we are discussing !!! When I mentioned about the debate
between Vevkat Ji and Bhaskar Ji, the question was what was stated by
Venkat Ji, copied below for ready reference.

V ;; // If ignorance was not "something existent", why is the
self-effulgent Brahman not known by all? //.

The debate did not reach the point of furnishing the answer to this.

I do know that Sri SSS addresses this question directly. But since it would
be my understanding of the position of Sri SSS, and not being his follower
my understanding could be dismissed as coloured, I suggested that you could
persuade some of his followers to present the position taken by Sri SSS.
Does he provide an answer which involves absence of any obstruction. The
answer provided by Sri Bhagavatpada in our opinion is the obstruction
caused by a *positive* entity termed ajnAna, but not understood as merely
*absence of knowledge*.

Reg  // Finally, as Arun Murthi pointed out in his paper on mūlāvidyā,
‘removing ignorance’ is not the same as ‘removing a thorn’//,

Common. MūlāvidyāvAdins also never claimed it is same as ‘removing a
thorn’. I would dismiss it with contempt. I am surprised that you are
giving credence to it.

Regards

On Fri, Sep 6, 2024 at 4:32 PM <dwaite at advaita.org.uk> wrote:

> Thank you all for the responses to my request for a śruti quotation to
> support the contention that ignorance is an ontologically existent entity.
> (Although I cannot say that I feel I now have one.)
>
>
>
> Thank you to Sudhanshu-ji for the Ṛg Veda reference. Unfortunately, my
> familiarity with this is zero. A general point here, which is unfortunately
> likely to raise a few hackles: I tend to ignore all references to gods,
> supernatural events, etc. unless Śaṅkara’s commentary elicits clear
> metaphorical relevance to something useful. I’m sure all such things had
> their relevance to past cultures, but I suggest they are superfluous to
> today’s seekers. (Rinse my mouth out with vinegar!)
>
>
>
> I also recall that there was an Advaitin member over 20 years ago who used
> to respond to practically every post with a comment about ajāti vāda. It
> used to really annoy me. Now, of course, having written a book on Māṇḍūkya
> and kārikā-s, there is a tendency to respond similarly! Essentially,
> though, I do not feel that (effectively) saying that ‘before light, there
> was darkness’ is very persuasive.
>
>
>
> Thank you to Venkatraghavan-ji for the Bṛhadāraṇyaka and Sureśvara
> Vārttika references. While it is true that much of Śaṅkara’s teaching
> derives from this Upaniṣad, it does contain a lot of the ‘supernatural’
> stuff I referred to above, being so old. I actually think Sureśvara's
> Vārttika on Puruṣavidha Brāhmaṇa (1368) gives a clearer message. I’m sure
> someone must have quoted it earlier:
>
>
>
> अजानं संशयजानं मिश्याजानमिति त्रिकम्
>
> अजानं कारणं तत्र कार्यत्वं परिशिष्टयोः
>
>
>
> Ignorance, doubt-born knowledge, and mixed knowledge are the triad.
> Ignorance (ajñāna) is the cause there, while the other two (doubt-born
> knowledge and mixed knowledge) are effects.
>
>
>
> But, to my mind at least, the first reference to ajñāna as the cause could
> equally well be translated as ‘lack of knowledge’ – and makes far more
> sense. Surely, lack of knowledge is what leads to confusion and all
> cognitive errors.
>
>
>
> Thank you to Jaishankar-ji for removing the Devanagari from his erudite
> document. Unfortunately, the complicated logical argumentation still seems
> to be there…
>
>
>
> Thank you to Subbu-ji, for more Br. Up and Vārttika. But this mentions
> gods and death again.
>
>
>
> Finally, thank you to Chandramouli-ji. You say that learning Cantonese is
> not a good analogy because “*Consciousness* is svaprakAsha meaning that it
> stands *revealed* automatically, effortlessly.” I am bound to ask: why,
> then, is not everyone enlightened? My understanding is that we need a
> qualified guru to explain all this to us by interpreting the scriptures.
>
>
>
> Your point that “*absence of knowledge* is not possible in the presence of
> Self-revealing Consciousness” is well made. But it does presuppose that
> ‘ignorance’ or ‘absence’ is an ontological entity. I have probably already
> said that Vol. 2 of the ‘Confusions in Advaita Vedanta’ (currently with the
> publisher) is solely on the topic of ‘Ignorance and its Removal’ and runs
> to over 100,000 words. Hence the impossibility of stating all my thoughts
> on the subject here. My understanding of this point is simply that SSS
> considers that ‘ignorance’ is an epistemological concept and not an
> ontological one. The epistemological position is that ignorance is purely
> subjective, dependent upon the mind and affecting how we perceive reality.
> He says, for example:
>
>
>
> “*If one admits the non-dual principle as the final reality, there is no
> place for any objections. One cannot impute even a trace of ignorance or of
> any other defect to the non-dual reality. For the Veda says, ‘What could a
> person see then, and with what?’(B**ṛ**ihad. Up. 2.4.1) In empirical
> experience, on the other hand, wherever and in whatever way Ignorance is
> experienced, it must be accepted there in that way. There are no objections
> to be raised or answered.*” (The Method of the Vedanta, A. J. Alston)
>
>
>
> Finally, as Arun Murthi pointed out in his paper on mūlāvidyā, ‘removing
> ignorance’ is not the same as ‘removing a thorn’.
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Dennis
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "advaitin" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/001b01db004c%2438c7bc10%24aa573430%24%40advaita.org.uk
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/001b01db004c%2438c7bc10%24aa573430%24%40advaita.org.uk?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Virus-free.www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>