[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Kilogram not yet concluded after all

[H S Chandramouli]

Dear Dennis Ji,

Reg  // Although I cannot say that I feel I now have one//,

What about the BG 5-15 verse copied below. Does it meet with your
requirements.

// नादत्ते कस्यचित्पापं न चैव सुकृतं विभुः ।
अज्ञानेनावृतं ज्ञानं तेन मुह्यन्ति जन्तवः ॥ १५ ॥ //

// nAdatte kasyachitpApaM na chaiva sukRRitaM vibhuH |

aj~nAnenAvRRitaM j~nAnaM tena muhyanti jantavaH || 15 ||//.

Translation  // The Omnipresent neither accepts anybody's sin nor even
virtue. *Knowledge remains covered by ignorance.* Thereby the creatures
become deluded // .

Bhashya // …. अज्ञानेन आवृतं ज्ञानं विवेकविज्ञानम् , तेन मुह्यन्ति ‘करोमि
कारयामि भोक्ष्ये भोजयामि’ इत्येवं मोहं गच्छन्ति अविवेकिनः संसारिणो जन्तवः ॥
१५ ॥ //.

// // …. aj~nAnena AvRRitaM j~nAnaM vivekavij~nAnam , tena muhyanti ‘karomi
kArayAmi bhokShye bhojayAmi’ ityevaM mohaM gachChanti avivekinaH saMsAriNo
jantavaH || 15 ||//.

Translation // ……..To this the Lord says: Jnanam, knowledge, discriminating
wisdom; remains avrtam, covered; ajnanena, by ignorance. Tena, thereby;
jantavah, the creatures, the non-discriminating people in the world;
muhyanti, become deluded thus-'I do; I make others do; I eat; I make others
eat.' //.

Regards

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On Fri, Sep 6, 2024 at 4:54 PM H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Dennis Ji,
>
> Reg  //  I am bound to ask: why, then, is not everyone enlightened? //.
>
> That is the issue we are discussing !!! When I mentioned about the debate
> between Vevkat Ji and Bhaskar Ji, the question was what was stated by
> Venkat Ji, copied below for ready reference.
>
> V ;; // If ignorance was not "something existent", why is the
> self-effulgent Brahman not known by all? //.
>
> The debate did not reach the point of furnishing the answer to this.
>
> I do know that Sri SSS addresses this question directly. But since it
> would be my understanding of the position of Sri SSS, and not being his
> follower my understanding could be dismissed as coloured, I suggested that
> you could persuade some of his followers to present the position taken by
> Sri SSS. Does he provide an answer which involves absence of any
> obstruction. The answer provided by Sri Bhagavatpada in our opinion is the
> obstruction caused by a *positive* entity termed ajnAna, but not understood
> as merely *absence of knowledge*.
>
> Reg  // Finally, as Arun Murthi pointed out in his paper on mūlāvidyā,
> ‘removing ignorance’ is not the same as ‘removing a thorn’//,
>
> Common. MūlāvidyāvAdins also never claimed it is same as ‘removing a
> thorn’. I would dismiss it with contempt. I am surprised that you are
> giving credence to it.
>
> Regards
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2024 at 4:32 PM <dwaite at advaita.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Thank you all for the responses to my request for a śruti quotation to
>> support the contention that ignorance is an ontologically existent entity.
>> (Although I cannot say that I feel I now have one.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you to Sudhanshu-ji for the Ṛg Veda reference. Unfortunately, my
>> familiarity with this is zero. A general point here, which is unfortunately
>> likely to raise a few hackles: I tend to ignore all references to gods,
>> supernatural events, etc. unless Śaṅkara’s commentary elicits clear
>> metaphorical relevance to something useful. I’m sure all such things had
>> their relevance to past cultures, but I suggest they are superfluous to
>> today’s seekers. (Rinse my mouth out with vinegar!)
>>
>>
>>
>> I also recall that there was an Advaitin member over 20 years ago who
>> used to respond to practically every post with a comment about ajāti vāda.
>> It used to really annoy me. Now, of course, having written a book on Māṇḍūkya
>> and kārikā-s, there is a tendency to respond similarly! Essentially,
>> though, I do not feel that (effectively) saying that ‘before light, there
>> was darkness’ is very persuasive.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you to Venkatraghavan-ji for the Bṛhadāraṇyaka and Sureśvara
>> Vārttika references. While it is true that much of Śaṅkara’s teaching
>> derives from this Upaniṣad, it does contain a lot of the ‘supernatural’
>> stuff I referred to above, being so old. I actually think Sureśvara's
>> Vārttika on Puruṣavidha Brāhmaṇa (1368) gives a clearer message. I’m
>> sure someone must have quoted it earlier:
>>
>>
>>
>> अजानं संशयजानं मिश्याजानमिति त्रिकम्
>>
>> अजानं कारणं तत्र कार्यत्वं परिशिष्टयोः
>>
>>
>>
>> Ignorance, doubt-born knowledge, and mixed knowledge are the triad.
>> Ignorance (ajñāna) is the cause there, while the other two (doubt-born
>> knowledge and mixed knowledge) are effects.
>>
>>
>>
>> But, to my mind at least, the first reference to ajñāna as the cause
>> could equally well be translated as ‘lack of knowledge’ – and makes far
>> more sense. Surely, lack of knowledge is what leads to confusion and all
>> cognitive errors.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you to Jaishankar-ji for removing the Devanagari from his erudite
>> document. Unfortunately, the complicated logical argumentation still seems
>> to be there…
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you to Subbu-ji, for more Br. Up and Vārttika. But this mentions
>> gods and death again.
>>
>>
>>
>> Finally, thank you to Chandramouli-ji. You say that learning Cantonese is
>> not a good analogy because “*Consciousness* is svaprakAsha meaning that it
>> stands *revealed* automatically, effortlessly.” I am bound to ask: why,
>> then, is not everyone enlightened? My understanding is that we need a
>> qualified guru to explain all this to us by interpreting the scriptures.
>>
>>
>>
>> Your point that “*absence of knowledge* is not possible in the presence
>> of Self-revealing Consciousness” is well made. But it does presuppose that
>> ‘ignorance’ or ‘absence’ is an ontological entity. I have probably already
>> said that Vol. 2 of the ‘Confusions in Advaita Vedanta’ (currently with the
>> publisher) is solely on the topic of ‘Ignorance and its Removal’ and runs
>> to over 100,000 words. Hence the impossibility of stating all my thoughts
>> on the subject here. My understanding of this point is simply that SSS
>> considers that ‘ignorance’ is an epistemological concept and not an
>> ontological one. The epistemological position is that ignorance is purely
>> subjective, dependent upon the mind and affecting how we perceive reality.
>> He says, for example:
>>
>>
>>
>> “*If one admits the non-dual principle as the final reality, there is no
>> place for any objections. One cannot impute even a trace of ignorance or of
>> any other defect to the non-dual reality. For the Veda says, ‘What could a
>> person see then, and with what?’(B**ṛ**ihad. Up. 2.4.1) In empirical
>> experience, on the other hand, wherever and in whatever way Ignorance is
>> experienced, it must be accepted there in that way. There are no objections
>> to be raised or answered.*” (The Method of the Vedanta, A. J. Alston)
>>
>>
>>
>> Finally, as Arun Murthi pointed out in his paper on mūlāvidyā, ‘removing
>> ignorance’ is not the same as ‘removing a thorn’.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Dennis
>>
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>>
>
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