[Advaita-l] [advaitin] How jnAnAbhAva can cause adhyAsa !!??

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

Namaste Michael
The word jnAna is used for both svarUpa-jnAna and vRtti-jnAnam. The latter
idea is as I understand not dealt with adequately by SSS ji

The former is nitya.
The latter is an event which occurs when a pramANa is used and it goes away
and is no longer required because the avidyA w r t that viShaya has been
removed by the vRtti. So the vRtti's non-continuance is not a problem for
mainstream vedAnta which holds that removal of the veil of avidyA occurs by
pramA (vRtti).

In SSS ji method however,  jnAnAbhAva *has* to mean the absence of
vRtti-jnAnam because everyone agrees svarUpa-jnAnam is eternal. There is no
dispute on that front.

But there is a problem with that idea of SSS ji because if jnAna-abhAva is
just absence of jnAna-vRtti, then there will be jnAnAbhAva even after the
jnAna-vRtti falls away.

The only way out for SSS ji is that there is no such vRtti required at all
for brahmajnAnam. And sAxI *directly intuits* the jnAnam without involving
the mind at all. (Because if mind is involved, jnAna-vRtti is necessitated.)

 Such direct "intuition" of reality by sAxI without involvement of the mind
is not tenable.  What is the bhAShya word for intuition by sAxI?

The word sAxi-vedya in mainstream Vedanta does not imply there is no
corresponding vRtti involved. So jnAnam once it occurs, is nitya because
the avidyA is destroyed and even pramAtRtvaM is understood as mithyA so
avidyA cannot come back.

But with jnAnAbhAva, there is a problem.

sAxI only illuminates whatever is before it - whether it is jnAna or
ajnAna, like the Sun.

 I am told that the underlying epistemology of how shAstra pramANa gives
rise to the necessary vRttis which remove avidyA is not covered in SSS ji
prakriya books.

In vRtti-jnAnam removing avidyA - the model espoused by mainstream vedAnta,
it is still the antyam pramANam which does not objectify Brahman - because
self-knowledge is devoid of any "phala vyApti" and only vRtti-vyApti occurs
when mind is exposed to shAstra etc.

So in mainstream vedAnta, there is no such untenable idea of sAxI directly
getting jnAnam without any involvement of antaHkaraNa vRtti - (the way the
jnAnAbhAva model implies).



Om
Raghav




On Thu, 12 Sept, 2024, 10:02 pm Michael Chandra Cohen via Advaita-l, <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste Raghav,
>
> // Meaning jnAna-vRtti-abhAva will obtain even after ajnAna has
> been removed. This is not a problem for those who hold that the
> AvaraNAtmaka entity is bhAva-rUpA. But if no such entity is allowed (as per
> SSS ji), jnAnAbhAva will be there afterwards too! //
>
> What is this vritti that survives the fall of avidya? What was that vritti
> at any time? Thoughts are imaginations - call them bhavarupa but they are
> bhava alone - the rupa is adhyasa.
> Mulavidya reifies by positing a bhavarupa 'entity'
>
> On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 3:18 AM Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Hari Om Raghav ji.
> >
> >
> > > Only issue is, vRtti arises, removes avidyA and vRtti has gone away.
> > (like
> > > the kataka reNu purifying the water). In that condition, although vRtti
> > is
> > > no longer present in the mind, we cannot use the word jnAna-abhAva for
> > that
> > > condition purely based on absence of continuation of the vRtti. Is not
> > that
> > > a problem? Meaning jnAna-vRtti-abhAva will obtain even after ajnAna has
> > > been removed. This is not a problem for those who hold that the
> > > AvaraNAtmaka entity is bhAva-rUpA. But if no such entity is allowed (as
> > per
> > > SSS ji), jnAnAbhAva will be there afterwards too! I recollect Praveen
> ji
> > > too pointed out the same in an earlier thread.
> > >
> >
> > Here, by jnAna-abhAva, we are talking about the usual table-jnAna-abhAva,
> > chair-jnAna-abhAva etc. This effectively means absence of
> > chair-AkArA-antah-karaNa-vritti, table-AkArA-antah-karaNa-vritti etc.
> >
> > By jnAna-abhAva, we are not talking of swarUpa-jnAna-abhAva, because
> > swarUpa-jnAna is eternal. We have to limit ourselves to that jnAna which
> is
> > temporal, because only that which is temporal, can have abhAva.
> >
> > Therefore, when table-AkArA-antah-karana-vritti arises,
> > avidyA-of-shuddha-chaitanya-with-table-as-the-avachchhedaka is removed.
> > Thereafter table-AkArA-antah-karaNa-vritti may remain, but there is
> nothing
> > to be removed. If eyes are in contact with table,
> > table-AkArA-antah-karaNa-vritti is bound to be there, but there is no
> > longer avidyA-of-shuddha-chaitanya-with-table-as-the-avachchhedaka. So,
> it
> > is not the case that vritti necessarily has to go after removing avidyA.
> > That is true only in case of removal of mUlAvidyA by
> > akhanDAkArA-antah-karaNa-vritti.
> >
> > So, deep sleep or videha-mukti would be an example of such kind of
> > temporal-jnAna-abhAva which we discussed. SwarUpa-jnAna, as stated is
> > eternal.
> >
> > The following may be perused for more elaboration:
> >
> >
> >
> https://archive.org/details/Vivarana.Prameya.Sangrah.by.Vidyaranya.Swami/page/n95/mode/2up
> > [Page 72-73]
> >
> > Also please check page number 51, first para from
> >
> >
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0gCz3b-LM1VTnJhUXpJZzFZQ2s/view?resourcekey=0-VAnTvUpxgVVNAKAUkS3iVg
> >
> >
> >
> > *Now, just as a side point, I wish to mention - subsequent to removal of
> > avidyA-of-shuddha-chaitanya-with-table-as-the-avachchhedaka, the
> > table-AkArA-antah-karaNa-vritti cannot be called as a pramANa. Because
> > pramANa helps in knowing an unknown object. It does not help in knowing a
> > known object. So, once pramANa (table-AkArA-antah-karaNa-vritti) has
> > removed the avidyA-of-shuddha-chaitanya-with-table-as-the-avachchhedaka,
> > the table is known by sAkshI. So, prior to operation of pramANa, table
> was
> > known by sAkshI with the adjective ajnAta-tva, while subsequent to the
> > pramANa-vyApAra, table is known by sAkshI with the adjective jnAta-tva.
> The
> > role of pramANa is merely to remove ajnAta-tva and bring in jnAta-tva.
> That
> > is how the extremely conceptual statement of VivaraNAchArya - सर्वं वस्तु
> > ज्ञाततयाज्ञाततया च साक्षिचैतन्यस्य विषयः - is explained.*
> >
> > Regarding SSS ji's views, they are never precise about what they mean by
> > abhAva. I have asked several times to Swamiji's sincere followers to
> > explain this jnAna-abhAva. What exactly it is? But I have not received
> any
> > serious response. I had read somewhere, probably in SugamA, I am open to
> > correction -- that jnAna-abhAva is Brahma-jnAna-prAk-abhAva. I will check
> > it. Such view is downright incorrect because prAk-abhAva has been
> > elaborately shown to be inadmissible. Its pratIti is impossible. Anyway,
> > more on this can be said only when there is enough clarity as to what
> they
> > mean by jnAna-abhAva.
> >
> > We have smRti and vikalpa for examples of vRttis which are not jnAna.
> Only
> > > pramANa (antaHkaraNa vRttis)  and nidrA and viparyaya (avidyA vRttis as
> > per
> > > vedAntic framework) are counted as the vRttis we are calling
> > > jnAna-avacchedaka-vRttis. Yes?
> > >
> >
> > vishayAkArA-vritti, whether it is of antah-karaNa or of avidyA, is
> > avachchhedaka of jnAna. smriti is also included in jnAna. For a pictorial
> > representation, the following may be seen:
> >
> > https://sudhanshushekhar.wordpress.com/2022/01/29/definitions/
> >
> > Regards.
> > Sudhanshu Shekhar.
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