[Advaita-l] what is abhava?

[Michael Chandra Cohen]

typo. prak-abava OF jnana abhava

On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 6:27 AM Michael Chandra Cohen <
michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Raghav,
> Might SSSSji be referring to aviveka as prak-abhava or jnana abhava?
>
> On Sun, Sep 15, 2024 at 10:06 PM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <
> raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Michael
>>  Entities like "hare's horns" and snake seen in rope are said to have
>> atyanta abhAva. Only idam-amsha has anuvRtti.
>>
>> Om
>> Raghav
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 16 Sept, 2024, 7:29 am Michael Chandra Cohen, <
>> michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Raghav,
>>> Thanks for taking the trouble to find that citation but alas, my
>>> Sanskrit is useless to read the text. How could prak-abhavA be prior to
>>> abhava jnana? Doesn't make sense. I've asked someone better versed in
>>> SSSS's texts for clarification.
>>>
>>> /Only atyanta-abhAva (absolute non-existence) is accepted. //
>>> What is it that is said to be atyanta abhava? If you name it then
>>> pratiyogi gives it bhava, no? The message of Ghata Bhasya (BrU 1.2.1) is
>>> that there can be NO absolute non-existence at all, as I understand
>>> the text: " Moreover, if the jar before its manifestation be a complete
>>> abhāva (nonentity) like the proverbial horns of a hare (śaśaviṣāṇavat), it
>>> cannot be connected either with its cause or with existence (sat) "
>>>
>>> regards, michael
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 15, 2024 at 9:01 PM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <
>>> raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 15 Sept, 2024, 7:18 pm Michael Chandra Cohen, <
>>>> michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Raghav, Thanks for the reference but I'd like to know more
>>>>> about the context of the excerpt. On the surface, jnAna-abhAva as
>>>>> prak-abhava makes no sense.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Even upon careful evaluation, the category called prAk-abhAva is
>>>> problematic. And so SSS ji idea of jnAna-abhAva being a prior-non-existence
>>>> is not supported by bhAShya.
>>>>
>>>> Here is the full reference.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://adhyatmaprakasha.org/php/bookreader/templates/book.php?type=sanskrit&book_id=008&pagenum=0001#page/45/mode/1up
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would subject jnana and its absence to time whereas time depends on
>>>>> adhyasa which is co-terminus with jnana abhava. These should not be taken
>>>>> as events in time but rather as incorrect perceptions including time..
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> svarUpa jnAna is nitya. It is not subject to time.
>>>>
>>>> But vRtti-jnAna which takes us out of the stream of time, so to speak,
>>>> does arise in time at a certain time when vedAnta pramANa works . Such
>>>> vRtti jnAnam is mithyA, but it can be time-stamped.
>>>>
>>>> The siddhAnta is very clear that time is itself mithyA.
>>>>
>>>> But the Siddhanta position is that prAk-abhAva is not a valid category.
>>>>
>>>> Only atyanta-abhAva (absolute non-existence) is accepted. That applies
>>>> to "horns of a hare" and snake seen in rope (upon negation by right
>>>> understanding, it is understood as never having existed at all.)
>>>>
>>>> Om
>>>> Raghav
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> //As you know the prior non-existence of any entity is not accepted in
>>>>> siddhAnta, since satkAryavAda is adopted atleast provisionally.//
>>>>> Sorry, I don't get this. Perhaps a typo (not). But, what is the entity
>>>>> that we are referring to when we say prak-abhava. Is there an assumption of
>>>>> avidya as a positive something that exists in time?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards, michael
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Sep 15, 2024 at 8:51 AM Raghav Kumar D wivedula via Advaita-l <
>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Namaste Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SSSS ji says in SugamA as mentioned by Sudhanshu ji
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  तर्हि कतमोऽयं ज्ञानाभाव इति चेत् । प्रागभाव एवास्तु ।
>>>>>> (Translation - In that case, *which type* is this jnAna-abhAva ?
>>>>>> (Answer)
>>>>>> It is prAk-abhAva, prior non-existence. )
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As you know the prior non-existence of any entity is not accepted in
>>>>>> siddhAnta, since satkAryavAda is adopted atleast provisionally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Om
>>>>>> Raghav
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The web-link is
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://adhyatmaprakasha.org/php/bookreader/templates/book.php?type=sanskrit&book_id=008&pagenum=0001#page/45/mode/1up
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Sept, 2024, 3:32 pm Michael Chandra Cohen via Advaita-l, <
>>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Mimamsa speaks of 4 kinds of abhava - prior, subsequent, mutual and
>>>>>> > absolute. Aren't these all material abhava-s?  When SSSSji refers to
>>>>>> > abhavarupa avidya, which abhava is he referring to?
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>>>>>