[Advaita-l] what is abhava?

[Michael Chandra Cohen]

Namaste Raghav,
Might SSSSji be referring to aviveka as prak-abhava or jnana abhava?

On Sun, Sep 15, 2024 at 10:06 PM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <
raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Michael
>  Entities like "hare's horns" and snake seen in rope are said to have
> atyanta abhAva. Only idam-amsha has anuvRtti.
>
> Om
> Raghav
>
>
> On Mon, 16 Sept, 2024, 7:29 am Michael Chandra Cohen, <
> michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Raghav,
>> Thanks for taking the trouble to find that citation but alas, my Sanskrit
>> is useless to read the text. How could prak-abhavA be prior to abhava
>> jnana? Doesn't make sense. I've asked someone better versed in SSSS's texts
>> for clarification.
>>
>> /Only atyanta-abhAva (absolute non-existence) is accepted. //
>> What is it that is said to be atyanta abhava? If you name it then
>> pratiyogi gives it bhava, no? The message of Ghata Bhasya (BrU 1.2.1) is
>> that there can be NO absolute non-existence at all, as I understand
>> the text: " Moreover, if the jar before its manifestation be a complete
>> abhāva (nonentity) like the proverbial horns of a hare (śaśaviṣāṇavat), it
>> cannot be connected either with its cause or with existence (sat) "
>>
>> regards, michael
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 15, 2024 at 9:01 PM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <
>> raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 15 Sept, 2024, 7:18 pm Michael Chandra Cohen, <
>>> michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste Raghav, Thanks for the reference but I'd like to know more
>>>> about the context of the excerpt. On the surface, jnAna-abhAva as
>>>> prak-abhava makes no sense.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes. Even upon careful evaluation, the category called prAk-abhAva is
>>> problematic. And so SSS ji idea of jnAna-abhAva being a prior-non-existence
>>> is not supported by bhAShya.
>>>
>>> Here is the full reference.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://adhyatmaprakasha.org/php/bookreader/templates/book.php?type=sanskrit&book_id=008&pagenum=0001#page/45/mode/1up
>>>
>>>
>>> It would subject jnana and its absence to time whereas time depends on
>>>> adhyasa which is co-terminus with jnana abhava. These should not be taken
>>>> as events in time but rather as incorrect perceptions including time..
>>>>
>>>
>>> svarUpa jnAna is nitya. It is not subject to time.
>>>
>>> But vRtti-jnAna which takes us out of the stream of time, so to speak,
>>> does arise in time at a certain time when vedAnta pramANa works . Such
>>> vRtti jnAnam is mithyA, but it can be time-stamped.
>>>
>>> The siddhAnta is very clear that time is itself mithyA.
>>>
>>> But the Siddhanta position is that prAk-abhAva is not a valid category.
>>>
>>> Only atyanta-abhAva (absolute non-existence) is accepted. That applies
>>> to "horns of a hare" and snake seen in rope (upon negation by right
>>> understanding, it is understood as never having existed at all.)
>>>
>>> Om
>>> Raghav
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> //As you know the prior non-existence of any entity is not accepted in
>>>> siddhAnta, since satkAryavAda is adopted atleast provisionally.//
>>>> Sorry, I don't get this. Perhaps a typo (not). But, what is the entity
>>>> that we are referring to when we say prak-abhava. Is there an assumption of
>>>> avidya as a positive something that exists in time?
>>>>
>>>> Regards, michael
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Sep 15, 2024 at 8:51 AM Raghav Kumar D wivedula via Advaita-l <
>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> SSSS ji says in SugamA as mentioned by Sudhanshu ji
>>>>>
>>>>>  तर्हि कतमोऽयं ज्ञानाभाव इति चेत् । प्रागभाव एवास्तु ।
>>>>> (Translation - In that case, *which type* is this jnAna-abhAva ?
>>>>> (Answer)
>>>>> It is prAk-abhAva, prior non-existence. )
>>>>>
>>>>> As you know the prior non-existence of any entity is not accepted in
>>>>> siddhAnta, since satkAryavAda is adopted atleast provisionally.
>>>>>
>>>>> Om
>>>>> Raghav
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The web-link is
>>>>>
>>>>> https://adhyatmaprakasha.org/php/bookreader/templates/book.php?type=sanskrit&book_id=008&pagenum=0001#page/45/mode/1up
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 15 Sept, 2024, 3:32 pm Michael Chandra Cohen via Advaita-l, <
>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Mimamsa speaks of 4 kinds of abhava - prior, subsequent, mutual and
>>>>> > absolute. Aren't these all material abhava-s?  When SSSSji refers to
>>>>> > abhavarupa avidya, which abhava is he referring to?
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>>>>> >
>>>>> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
>>>>> > https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>>>> >
>>>>> > For assistance, contact:
>>>>> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>>>>>
>>>>> To unsubscribe or change your options:
>>>>> https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>>>>
>>>>> For assistance, contact:
>>>>> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>>>>
>>>>