[Advaita-l] Dependant existence

[V Subrahmanian]

Dear Venkat ji,

That is an awesome observation that you make. The *wrong references* to the
Cause as the truly non-existent effects - vācārambhaṇam vikāro nāmadheyam -
underlies this idea that you propose.  The *abhidhāna *(name) that Shankara
says in that Chandogya cited bhashya and the buddhi that such name produces
are dropped when the truth is known. The final takeaway is: words (vācaḥ)
and buddhi (manas) can't be applied to (nivartante) Brahman. As Shankara
cites a conversation in the BSB 3.2.17:  And there is this pleasant
surprise to us:  when I looked up the bhashya to copy the
*उपशान्तोऽयमात्मा,* there Bhagavatpada cites the very passage you came up
with *:  *

दर्शयति च श्रुतिः पररूपप्रतिषेधेनैव ब्रह्म — निर्विशेषत्वात् — ‘अथात आदेशो
नेति नेति’ (बृ. उ. २ । ३ । ६)
<https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Brha/devanagari?page=2&id=BR_C02_S03_V06&hl=%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%A5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A4%20%E0%A4%86%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%B6%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF%20%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF>
 ‘अन्यदेव तद्विदितादथो अविदितादधि’ (के. उ. १ । ४)
<https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Kena_pada/devanagari?page=1&id=KP_C01_V04&hl=%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%B5%20%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%A5%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%A7%E0%A4%BF>
 ‘*यतो वाचो निवर्तन्ते अप्राप्य मनसा सह’* (तै. उ. २ । ४ । १)
<https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Taitiriya/devanagari?page=2&id=T_C02_S04_V01&hl=%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%9A%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%87%20%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%20%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BE%20%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%B9>
इत्येवमाद्या ।
बाष्कलिना च बाध्वः पृष्टः सन् अवचनेनैव ब्रह्म प्रोवाचेति श्रूयते — ‘स
होवाचाधीहि भो इति स तूष्णीं बभूव तं ह द्वितीये तृतीये वा वचन उवाच ब्रूमः
खलु त्वं तु न विजानासि । *उपशान्तोऽयमात्मा*’ इति । तथा स्मृतिष्वपि
परप्रतिषेधेनैवोपदिश्यते — ‘ज्ञेयं यत्तत्प्रवक्ष्यामि
यज्ज्ञात्वामृतमश्नुते । अनादिमत्परं ब्रह्म न सत्तन्नासदुच्यते’ (भ. गी. १३ ।
१२)
<https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Gita/devanagari?page=13&id=BG_C13_V12&hl=%E0%A4%9C%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%9E%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%82%20%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BF%20%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%9C%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%9C%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%9E%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%87%C2%A0%E0%A5%A4%20%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%82%20%E0%A4%AC%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%B9%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AE%20%E0%A4%A8%20%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%9A%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%87>
इत्येवमाद्यासु ।
तथा विश्वरूपधरो नारायणो नारदमुवाचेति स्मर्यते — ‘माया ह्येषा मया सृष्टा
यन्मां पश्यसि नारद ।’ (म. भा. १२ । ३३९ । ४५) ‘सर्वभूतगुणैर्युक्तं नैवं मां
ज्ञातुमर्हसि’ (म. भा. १२ । ३३९ । ४६) इति ॥ १७ ॥

warm regards
subbu

On Sun, Oct 12, 2025 at 7:06 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Subbuji,
> Re - "रज्जुविवेकदर्शिनां तु सर्पाभिधानबुद्धी निवर्तेते, यथा च
> मृद्विवेकदर्शिनां घटादिशब्दबुद्धी, तद्वत्
> सद्विवेकदर्शिनामन्यविकारशब्दबुद्धी निवर्तेते — ‘यतो वाचो निवर्तन्ते ।"
>
> Very unique application of the famous yato vAco nivartante mantra from the
> taittirIya upaniShad, into this context. Essentially Shankaracharya seems
> to be interpreting the mantra as "yatah = because of which, vAcah =
> (erroneous) words, nivartante = cease".
>
> Due to avidyA, sat is referred to erroneously as the objects of the world,
> and with sat viveka, those erroneous references to sat as other effects
> cease. yato vAco nivartante.
>
> If I am understanding this correct, it is a unique explanation of the
> mantra I haven't encountered elsewhere.
>
> Regards,
> Venkatraghavan
>
> On Sun, 12 Oct 2025, 18:26 V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l, <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Oct 12, 2025 at 3:46 PM Krishnaprakasha Bolumbu via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Hari Om|
>> >
>> > This is my understanding of the subject matter of Advaita
>> >
>> > “Dvaita rejects the *mithyātva* of the pot and affirms its objective
>> > reality. Advaita, however, does not call the pot *mithyā* in an illusory
>> > sense but regards its existence as *non-independent* — the pot has no
>> > reality apart from its constituents. In other words, Advaita denies that
>> > there can be a pot distinct from its material cause; its reality is
>> > conditional and borrowed from the underlying substratum (clay/Brahman).”
>> >
>>
>> Yes, true.  But such a dependent existence itself also makes the 'effect'
>> mithya.  In the rope-snake analogy, the snake imagined there has no
>> 'isness' apart from the rope there.  In other words the person in delusion
>> should have said 'there is a rope', but due to some defects, he says
>> 'there
>> is a snake.'  He is actually unknowingly transferring the rope-isness to
>> the snake.
>>
>> Shankara gives the rope-snake analogy while explaining the clay-pot
>> analogy
>> in the Chandogya Upanishad:  6.2.3"
>>
>> सदेव तु सर्वमभिधानमभिधीयते च यदन्यबुद्ध्या, यथा रज्जुरेव सर्पबुद्ध्या सर्प
>> इत्यभिधीयते, यथा वा पिण्डघटादि मृदोऽन्यबुद्ध्या पिण्डघटादिशब्देनाभिधीयते
>> लोके । रज्जुविवेकदर्शिनां तु सर्पाभिधानबुद्धी निवर्तेते, यथा च
>> मृद्विवेकदर्शिनां घटादिशब्दबुद्धी, तद्वत्
>> सद्विवेकदर्शिनामन्यविकारशब्दबुद्धी निवर्तेते — ‘यतो वाचो निवर्तन्ते ।
>> अप्राप्य मनसा सह’ (तै. उ. २ । ९ । १)
>> <
>> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Taitiriya/devanagari?page=2&id=T_C02_S09_V01&hl=%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%9A%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%87%C2%A0%E0%A5%A4%20%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%20%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BE%20%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%B9
>> >
>>  इति, ‘अनिरुक्तेऽनिलयने’ (तै. उ. २ । ७ । १)
>> <
>> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Taitiriya/devanagari?page=2&id=T_C02_S07_V01&hl=%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%BD%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%87
>> >
>>  इत्यादिश्रुतिभ्यः ।
>>
>> Sat, Existence, Brahman, the Cause, alone appears as the whole universe,
>> the effect.  Just like the clay lump and pot, etc. are in truth clay
>> alone...Upon realizing the rope, the snake perception goes, so too upon
>> the
>> clay realization the clay-lump, pot, etc. perception is known to be
>> mithya,
>> so too when Sat is realized the the effect-world-is-real perception goes.
>>
>> warm regards
>> subbu
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Kp
>> > _______________________________________________
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