[Advaita-l] Fw :Pourakutsa gotra abhivadya

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Thu Aug 21 13:12:37 CDT 2008
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It is not because of dis-belief of my elders or shastra's that I raised this question. Most of the times, these so called rituals are followed blindly. I think it is worth re-visiting why we do so. However trivial it may sound, this is part of the efforts towards realizing non-duality of the individual soul and God. I'm only a humble learner...not a shy one.
 
I thank Sri Vidyasankar ji who has put a lot of effort to explain it clearly. That is very similar to what I learned before. In a predominant patriarchical society, this happens during "transfer of the bride" and everything associated with her. I'd just like to add something that my mother told me when I was getting married. That a married woman is like a diya (light) that is put on the doorstep. It delivers light to both sides of the door. I'm sure you learned ones need no more elaboration of this.
 
Pranams,
Madhavi


--- On Thu, 8/21/08, advaita-l-request at lists.advaita-vedanta.org <advaita-l-request at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

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Subject: Advaita-l Digest, Vol 49, Issue 21
To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 1:00 PM

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Fw :Pourakutsa gotra abhivadya (fwd) (Jaldhar H.	Vyas)
      (Sundaresan, Vidyasankar (GE Infra,	Water))
   2. Re: Fw :Pourakutsa gotra abhivadya (fwd) (Jaldhar H.	Vyas)
      (sunil bhattacharjya)
   3. Re: Fw :Pourakutsa gotra abhivadya (fwd)	(Jaldhar	H.	Vyas)
      (sriram)
   4. New member introduction: Ravi (Jaldhar H. Vyas)
   5. Re: Fw :Pourakutsa gotra abhivadya (Amuthan)
   6. Re: Fw :Pourakutsa gotra abhivadya (S Jayanarayanan)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:14:47 -0400
From: "Sundaresan, Vidyasankar (GE Infra,	Water)"
	<vidyasankar.sundaresan at ge.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw :Pourakutsa gotra abhivadya (fwd) (Jaldhar
	H.	Vyas)
To: <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID:
	<B36E5920133AA24F8148E68B8836484B0B8229D5 at CINMLVEM23.e2k.ad.ge.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"


>While discussing on "Gotras" would someone help me
>understand why a woman's gotra is told to be changed
>to her husband's gotra (and surname) after marriage?
>It is side-tracking the actual topic but I'm in anveshana
>and would really appreciate anyone's kind thoughts.
>This is not a feministic perspective...I'm just a curious learner.
>
>Pranams,
>Madhavi. 

The reason for this is mostly legal, e.g. for deciding questions
of inheritance, and ritual, e.g. for death related ceremonies. A
gotra is to be understood as a clan. Typically, a marriage
Between two members of the same clan is not allowed, but
inheritance of name and property stays within the clan. As most
Human communities are patrilineal and patriarchical in nature,
The marriage event formalizes the transfer of the bride to her
husband's clan. After marriage, a woman is identified with her
husband's clan rather than her father's clan. All children born to
the couple then belong to the father's gotra, can inherit his
property and can perform the funeral and annual SrAddha rituals
for their parents.

Usually, this also correlates with the fact that the newly married
wife moves away to her husband's home. Similarly, when a child
is given away in adoption, his or her gotra changes to that of the
adoptive parents. The child goes to live with the adoptive parents,
no longer belongs to the gotra of its biological parents and has no
more rights to the property of the biological father. Instead, the
child stands to inherit the property of the adoptive father.

Within a patrilineal community, an exception occurs when the father
of the bride stipulates otherwise before the marriage. Traditionally,
this happened when a man only had a daughter and no sons. He
would then arrange with a future son-in-law that the grandson would
inherit his gotra and property. In this case, a male child would belong
to his maternal grandfather's gotra and not to his own father's gotra.
When the maternal grandfather died, this grandson would then be
eligible to perform the funeral and annual SrAddha-s. This situation is
rare, but there are many known and well-documented instances.

There are, of course, matrilineal communities too, e.g. the Nairs in
Kerala and many hill tribes in north-east India. In these cases, the
inheritance rules are exactly reversed. The children belong to the
mother's clan (called tharavAD in the case of Nairs), inherit and
observe death related mourning and rituals accordingly. Thus, a
Nair man's funeral is performed not by his own son, but by his
sister's son. This is because his sister's son belongs to his own
tharavAD, but his own son would belong to his wife's tharavAD.
Also, his share of property passes to his sister's children and not
to his own children. The Nair woman's funeral, however, is performed
by her own son, because her son belongs to her own tharavAD. Her
property also is inherited by her own children.

Regards,
Vidyasankar

ps. shaTamarshana, paurukutsa and vishNuvRddha are the same
gotra practically, as they have the same pravara. They can be
considered to be different names for the same gotra. There may be 
variations in the name and/or order of Rshi-s according to local or 
family custom, but that is of lesser consequence.


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:35:35 -0700
From: "sunil bhattacharjya" <skbhattacharjya at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw :Pourakutsa gotra abhivadya (fwd) (Jaldhar
	H.	Vyas)
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID:
	<2a5f390f0808201935w6870f7f1q9f8040bd6fac1af9 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Yes. I will only like to add that Gotra also helps to avoid marriage
within a gotra. There can be recessive genes within a gotra and a
consanguimous marriage can lead to damage of the gene pool and the
deleterious genetic effects can include defective offsprings. To avoid
occurrence of these undesirable effects the knowledge of Gotra is
useful.

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
>
>>While discussing on "Gotras" would someone help me
>>understand why a woman's gotra is told to be changed
>>to her husband's gotra (and surname) after marriage?
>>It is side-tracking the actual topic but I'm in anveshana
>>and would really appreciate anyone's kind thoughts.
>>This is not a feministic perspective...I'm just a curious learner.
>>
>>Pranams,
>>Madhavi.
>
> The reason for this is mostly legal, e.g. for deciding questions
> of inheritance, and ritual, e.g. for death related ceremonies. A
> gotra is to be understood as a clan. Typically, a marriage
> Between two members of the same clan is not allowed, but
> inheritance of name and property stays within the clan. As most
> Human communities are patrilineal and patriarchical in nature,
> The marriage event formalizes the transfer of the bride to her
> husband's clan. After marriage, a woman is identified with her
> husband's clan rather than her father's clan. All children born to
> the couple then belong to the father's gotra, can inherit his
> property and can perform the funeral and annual SrAddha rituals
> for their parents.
>
> Usually, this also correlates with the fact that the newly married
> wife moves away to her husband's home. Similarly, when a child
> is given away in adoption, his or her gotra changes to that of the
> adoptive parents. The child goes to live with the adoptive parents,
> no longer belongs to the gotra of its biological parents and has no
> more rights to the property of the biological father. Instead, the
> child stands to inherit the property of the adoptive father.
>
> Within a patrilineal community, an exception occurs when the father
> of the bride stipulates otherwise before the marriage. Traditionally,
> this happened when a man only had a daughter and no sons. He
> would then arrange with a future son-in-law that the grandson would
> inherit his gotra and property. In this case, a male child would belong
> to his maternal grandfather's gotra and not to his own father's
gotra.
> When the maternal grandfather died, this grandson would then be
> eligible to perform the funeral and annual SrAddha-s. This situation is
> rare, but there are many known and well-documented instances.
>
> There are, of course, matrilineal communities too, e.g. the Nairs in
> Kerala and many hill tribes in north-east India. In these cases, the
> inheritance rules are exactly reversed. The children belong to the
> mother's clan (called tharavAD in the case of Nairs), inherit and
> observe death related mourning and rituals accordingly. Thus, a
> Nair man's funeral is performed not by his own son, but by his
> sister's son. This is because his sister's son belongs to his own
> tharavAD, but his own son would belong to his wife's tharavAD.
> Also, his share of property passes to his sister's children and not
> to his own children. The Nair woman's funeral, however, is performed
> by her own son, because her son belongs to her own tharavAD. Her
> property also is inherited by her own children.
>
> Regards,
> Vidyasankar
>
> ps. shaTamarshana, paurukutsa and vishNuvRddha are the same
> gotra practically, as they have the same pravara. They can be
> considered to be different names for the same gotra. There may be
> variations in the name and/or order of Rshi-s according to local or
> family custom, but that is of lesser consequence.
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:12:26 -0700
From: "sriram" <srirudra at vsnl.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw :Pourakutsa gotra abhivadya (fwd)	(Jaldhar
	H.	Vyas)
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID: <001501c90354$e34ed3a0$0100a8c0 at admin22e887c10>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

Dear Members
I think we are simply whiling away the precious time by focussing on matters 
which are well settled and if really people want to know about these they 
can very well ask their elders or listen to pravachana karthas .I think we 
should devote to the philosophy and related threads as this type of 
digressions eventually lead to discussions on gender bias and a host of 
other things not related to this site.Moderators can intervene and direct 
the flow of thoughts.R.Krishnamoorthy.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "sunil bhattacharjya" <skbhattacharjya at gmail.com>
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" 
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw :Pourakutsa gotra abhivadya (fwd) (Jaldhar H. 
Vyas)


> Yes. I will only like to add that Gotra also helps to avoid marriage
> within a gotra. There can be recessive genes within a gotra and a
> consanguimous marriage can lead to damage of the gene pool and the
> deleterious genetic effects can include defective offsprings. To avoid
> occurrence of these undesirable effects the knowledge of Gotra is
> useful.
>
> Regards,
>
> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
>>
>>>While discussing on "Gotras" would someone help me
>>>understand why a woman's gotra is told to be changed
>>>to her husband's gotra (and surname) after marriage?
>>>It is side-tracking the actual topic but I'm in anveshana
>>>and would really appreciate anyone's kind thoughts.
>>>This is not a feministic perspective...I'm just a curious
learner.
>>>
>>>Pranams,
>>>Madhavi.
>>
>> The reason for this is mostly legal, e.g. for deciding questions
>> of inheritance, and ritual, e.g. for death related ceremonies. A
>> gotra is to be understood as a clan. Typically, a marriage
>> Between two members of the same clan is not allowed, but
>> inheritance of name and property stays within the clan. As most
>> Human communities are patrilineal and patriarchical in nature,
>> The marriage event formalizes the transfer of the bride to her
>> husband's clan. After marriage, a woman is identified with her
>> husband's clan rather than her father's clan. All children
born to
>> the couple then belong to the father's gotra, can inherit his
>> property and can perform the funeral and annual SrAddha rituals
>> for their parents.
>>
>> Usually, this also correlates with the fact that the newly married
>> wife moves away to her husband's home. Similarly, when a child
>> is given away in adoption, his or her gotra changes to that of the
>> adoptive parents. The child goes to live with the adoptive parents,
>> no longer belongs to the gotra of its biological parents and has no
>> more rights to the property of the biological father. Instead, the
>> child stands to inherit the property of the adoptive father.
>>
>> Within a patrilineal community, an exception occurs when the father
>> of the bride stipulates otherwise before the marriage. Traditionally,
>> this happened when a man only had a daughter and no sons. He
>> would then arrange with a future son-in-law that the grandson would
>> inherit his gotra and property. In this case, a male child would
belong
>> to his maternal grandfather's gotra and not to his own
father's gotra.
>> When the maternal grandfather died, this grandson would then be
>> eligible to perform the funeral and annual SrAddha-s. This situation
is
>> rare, but there are many known and well-documented instances.
>>
>> There are, of course, matrilineal communities too, e.g. the Nairs in
>> Kerala and many hill tribes in north-east India. In these cases, the
>> inheritance rules are exactly reversed. The children belong to the
>> mother's clan (called tharavAD in the case of Nairs), inherit and
>> observe death related mourning and rituals accordingly. Thus, a
>> Nair man's funeral is performed not by his own son, but by his
>> sister's son. This is because his sister's son belongs to his
own
>> tharavAD, but his own son would belong to his wife's tharavAD.
>> Also, his share of property passes to his sister's children and
not
>> to his own children. The Nair woman's funeral, however, is
performed
>> by her own son, because her son belongs to her own tharavAD. Her
>> property also is inherited by her own children.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Vidyasankar
>>
>> ps. shaTamarshana, paurukutsa and vishNuvRddha are the same
>> gotra practically, as they have the same pravara. They can be
>> considered to be different names for the same gotra. There may be
>> variations in the name and/or order of Rshi-s according to local or
>> family custom, but that is of lesser consequence.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>>
>> To unsubscribe or change your options:
>> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>>
>> For assistance, contact:
>> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org 



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 10:02:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at braincells.com>
Subject: [Advaita-l] New member introduction: Ravi
To: Advaita-L <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0808211001410.32625 at jaldhar-laptop>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

Hi,

I would like to learn more about Advaita Vedanta and wish to join this group.

Thanks.
Ravi


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:55:19 +0530
From: Amuthan <aparyap at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw :Pourakutsa gotra abhivadya
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID:
	<6497d9b90808210725m60e47975l7dcf5f37dd90da4b at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Dear list members,
  Sorry to drag on into this topic which I suppose is irrelevant to
advaita siddhAnta, but i'm interested in getting some doubts cleared.
Those who find it irrelevant may ignore it.

> --- On Sun, 8/17/08, Vidyasankar Sundaresan
<svidyasankar_at_hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The set of 3 (or 5 or sometimes even 7) rishis for a gotra
>> is unique. No two gotra-s can share the same pravara.
>> However, some gotra-s have multiple names.
and
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 12:15 PM, S Jayanarayanan <sjayana_at_yahoo.com>
wrote:
> When I mentioned this to my father, he said that IF the Paurukutsa Gotra
and SaThamarShaNa Gotra share the same 3 Rishis in their pravaras, then they are
to be treated as sa-gotras, even though the actual Gotra name may be different.

One of my friends who is knowledgeable in these issues told me that
the vasishTha and kauNDiNya gotra-s are _different_ gotra-s though
they have the same set of 3 RshIs (vasishTha, maitrAvaruNa,
kauNDiNya). Is this right? While on the topic, what exactly does it
mean to say that two gotra-s as sagotra?

On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 12:44 AM, Sundaresan, Vidyasankar (GE Infra,
Water) <vidyasankar.sundaresan_at_ge.com> wrote:
> ps. shaTamarshana, paurukutsa and vishNuvRddha are the same
> gotra practically, as they have the same pravara. They can be
> considered to be different names for the same gotra.

I think this might be true for this particular gotra. I found one more
reference to this fact somewhere online. Thanks for the information.

On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 1:31 PM, Ramesh Krishnamurthy
<rkmurthy_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> The correct ITRANS, to my knowledge, is ShaDmarShaNa and not
SaThamarShaNa.

I'm not sure what your source is, but atleast in my family they
pronounce it as SaThamarShaNa and not ShaDmarShaNa. It may be possible
that this is yet another name for this gotra, but I haven't heard
about it earlier.

amudan.


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 09:29:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: S Jayanarayanan <sjayana at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw :Pourakutsa gotra abhivadya
To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
Message-ID: <164697.65821.qm at web50805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- On Thu, 8/21/08, Amuthan <aparyap at gmail.com> wrote:

 
> On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 1:31 PM, Ramesh Krishnamurthy
> <rkmurthy_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> > The correct ITRANS, to my knowledge, is ShaDmarShaNa
> and not SaThamarShaNa.
> 
> I'm not sure what your source is, but atleast in my
> family they
> pronounce it as SaThamarShaNa and not ShaDmarShaNa. It may
> be possible
> that this is yet another name for this gotra, but I
> haven't heard
> about it earlier.
> 

There is no doubt that it is SaThamarShaNa and not ShaDmarShaNa. There is a
vAyu called shaTham that is generally considered to be the first air that the
newborn breathes in, which causes the newborn to cry, "kva, kva!",
meaning "Where have I come!" (indicating a fear of the new world, and
lack of strength in standing up to one's past Karma). SaThamarShaNa did not
suffer by crying like this, since he was born enlightened and realized that he
was free of Karma.

People erroneously pronounce it as ShaDmarShaNa in Tamilnadu because of a lack
of mahAprANam (kha, gha, cha, bha, etc.), and also the lack of distinction
between T and D in the Tamil language.

> amudan.

Regards,
Kartik


      


------------------------------

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