[Advaita-l] Madhvas custom of Sraddha is not correct

[Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l]

Namaste
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:43 AM, V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> There is the yathAshakti nyAya in the case of such karmas.  Take for
> instance this pitRpaksha.  There are people who do daily full fledged
> shraaddham on all the fifteen days.  There are those who do tarpana on all
> these days and perform shraaddham on one or two days depending on their
> facility/capacity.  I know of a kerala iyer, a banker, who did nitya
> shraaddham throughout the first year of his parents' demise.  There are
> people who do the mAsika shraaddham in a full fledged way every month.
>

First we have to understand what is Sraddha. पितॄनुद्दिश्य विप्रेभ्यो दत्तं
श्राद्धमुदाहृतम् . Kindly understand that Giving to Brahmins thinking it is
for Pitrus is Sraddha. Giving to Brahmins is the definition of Sraddha. You
can do a Deva Puja alone. No outsider is required. But in Sraddha you have
to give to Brahmins. If you do Sraddha alone it is useless. It will not
please Pitrus.

How much to give to Brahmins?

जीवतोर् वाक्यकरणात् श्राद्धे भूरिप्रदानतः ।
गयायां पिण्डदानाच्च त्रिभिः पुत्रस्य पुत्रता ॥
When they are living he obeys parents' words and looks after them. When
they are gone he performs rites and gives a lot or Generously to Brahmins
in Sraddha. He offers Pindas in Gaya and other sacred places. From these
three things he is worthy to be a son.

How much to give question is answered. He must give Generously. When you
say Yatha Sakti it has become a dangerous word nowadays. People think
यथाशक्ति means whatever you like. No. यथाशक्ति does not mean whatever you
like. It means according to your capacity. If a Crore Pati कोट्याधिपति
gives 10000 rupees in a yearly Sraddha is it यथाशक्ति? You may say yes. I
say no. There is a flaw of using यथाशक्तिन्याय nowadays.


> While it is laudable to do shraaddham with complete shraddhaa, the
> capacity, physical and other, also have to be considered.  The women folk
> who have problems related to age are not able to do the cooking.  When
> cooks are engaged there are unique problems related to that even.  Often
> they agree to come and at the last moment absent themselves.
>

अथ श्राद्धप्रशंसा चन्द्रिकायां कूर्मपुराणे -

Now the Kurma Purana praises Sraddha-

श्राद्धात्परतरं नास्ति श्रेयस्करमुदाहृतम् ।
तस्मात्सर्वप्रयत्नेन श्राद्धं कुर्याद्विचक्षणः ॥

Sraddha is the best Karma. There is no other Karma better than Sraddha.
So the wise person should do Sraddha with all effort.

ब्राह्मणः क्षत्रियो वैश्यः शूद्रश्चापि विधानतः ।
स्वस्ववर्णोक्तमार्गेण श्राद्धं कुर्यादतंद्रितः॥
The four Varnas must do Sraddha not only Brahmins but also Kshatriyas,
Vaishyas and Sudras according to the Varna rules without becoming
tired.

You can see from above Slokas we have to put ALL effort and tirelessly do
Sraddha. There can be no excuses. Why? Because Sraddha is the best Karma.
If something is best for you should you not put ALL effort without giving
excuses?


>
> There are houses in the city where people can come and do shraaddham by
> paying them good charges.  Many are resorting to this facility these days.
>

If you do Sraddha in another person's house that person's Pitrus will take
away the Sraddha Phala but not your Pitrus.But if you pay rent or give
Dravya Daana to the owner for one day and do the Sraddha it is alright.
परकीये गृहे यस्तु स्व पितॄन् तर्पयेद्यदि ।
तद्भूमि स्वामिनस्तस्य हरन्ति पितरो बलात् ॥
तस्मात् क्रीत्वा महीं दत्त्वा स्वल्पामपि विचक्षणः ।
पिण्डः पितृभ्यो दत्तो वै तस्यां भवति शाश्वतः ॥



> Most people who officiate as pitru and vishvedeva are not at all qualified
> even to the minimum with the veda.  It is required that these people are to
> have some vedic exposure.  In my experience I have come across many retired
> school teachers or other officials and even a police constable who
> officiated on some occasions.  That way there is a lot of compromise.
>
No you are not correct to say this. The Minimum qualification for Sraddha
Brahmana is Sandhyavandana and having good conduct and peaceful nature. He
is NOT required to be Master of Vedas.

>
> Most brahmanas have become health conscious and refuse most servings and as
> noted already leave the eatables as refuse on the leaf.
>
This may be some Brahmanas. But you cannot say all are like that.  You must
make effort to find Brahmins who eat well.


> The system of svayampAka is age old and is a substitute for serving of
> regular  cooked food.  One cannot compel people to always stick to the
> norms.  In my opinion the annual shraaddham has to be performed in the
> regular way and the paksha shraaddham and maasika can be done in the
> compromised manner (hiranya rUpeNa).  If too much imposition is made,
> people will lose even the little shraddhaa and give up for ever the
> shraaddha ceremony.  Already some people adopt the wrong practice of doing
> Gaya shraaddha once and give up shraadddha completely after that.
>
Let us not worry about what others will do.  Every person can work to
correct himself and spread awareness.

>
> I came across an aged person who had to perform three shraaddhams every
> year and became completely tired of that and took sannyasa.
>
Doing three Sraddhas every year is not a burden.  It is not correct to
avoid it.


>
> Let us not blame people who, owing to various compulsions, compromise on
> the shraaddha practice.  One does not know what is in store for oneself as
> one grows old.
>
> Yes.. If an aged person is unable to physically sit in Sraddha he can use
compromises and short cuts. But not the able person. There is no problem if
Yatha Sakti Nyaya is properly applied. The problem is people start abusing
it and give excuses.

Such people must remember this.

मृताहं समतिक्रम्य चाण्डालः कोटिजन्मसु।
He becomes Chandala for a crore births if he does not do Sraddha.

If you do Pitru Karma then what? Pitrus will give everything including
Moksha itself.

आयुः प्रजां धनं विद्यां स्वर्गं मोक्षं सुखानि च ।
प्रयच्छन्ति तथा राज्यं प्रीता नॄणां पितामहाः ॥ [१-२७०]

By Sraddha the ancestors become  pleased and give a man longevity,
progeny, wealth, knowledge, heaven,  liberation,  happiness and also
kingdom.


> regards
> subrahmanian.v
>
> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 7:29 AM, R Krishnamoorthy via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Dear Sri Venkatesh Murthy
> > What I have said is out of my  experience.I have been doing srardham for
> > almost for the past 45 years.Ihave done them in
> > Pune,Mumbai,Chennai,Dindigul,Madurai,Kotagiri,Mettupalayam and
> > Coimbatore.What I find is for the past ten years this is the trend.If
> your
> > experience is good be blessed.There are instances where the conducting
> > purohit himself will represent a pithru/viswedeva and claim dakshina for
> > both parts,One swallow does not make a summer.Iwill not say they are
> > greedy.But they have also to measure up to the present levels of
> > affluence-some are having cars too-and the result is what I have
> > written.Dakshina is an important factor whether you accept it or not.Even
> > if you conduct by way of Hiranya srardham they demand full dakshina is my
> > experience.Of course we should give full respect for them and give them
> > their dues.But capacity to do it varies from individual to individual.
> Your
> > telling that the modern educated Brahmin spends so lavishly but cringes
> for
> > srardham expenditure is not correct.Why you call them as animal is beyond
> > my comprehension.For your information the NRIs among my relatives give
> good
> > dakshina for all functions.Anyway there are deficiencies in
> > bothsides.R.Krishnamoorthy,
> >
> > Sent from Windows Mail
> >
> >  *From:* Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > >
> > *Sent:* ‎September‎ ‎18‎, ‎2014 ‎8‎:‎47‎ ‎PM
> > *To:* A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > *Subject:* Re: [Advaita-l] Madhvas custom of Sraddha is not correct
> >
> > Namaste
> > On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 1:35 PM, V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 12:45 PM, R Krishnamoorthy via Advaita-l <
> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Sri Venkatesh Murthy
> > > > Now a days it is difficult to get good brahmanas for srardham
> food.The
> > > > sastrigal says it is difficult to get smartha Brahmins to represent
> the
> > > > pithru and viswedeva.I used to tell my priest one month in advance.
> > Also
> > > > the Brahmins are now days aged and suffer from some ailments too.They
> > are
> > > > not able to eat well. They simply stuff the uneaten things in the
> leafy
> > > > dhonnais-cups-and get up. Only they want dakshina. It is now
> > 500/-rupees
> > > > each .So from practical angle also it is proving difficult to perform
> > > > srardham as designed by our Rishies.We are happy to do this but
> > > > availability of persons conducting the srardham is becoming scarce.
> > That
> > > > may be a reason for Madhwas doing like this.R.Krishnamoorthy.
> > > >
> > >
> > > This is well said.  Also, there is the practice of giving svayampAkam
> to
> > > the brahmanas in case we are unable to serve them cooked food.  This
> > > involves giving rice, raw banana, some vegetables, etc. optionally and
> > > dakshina.
> > >
> > > It is sad to see Brahmin stereotyping statements  by well respected
> > members in this list. Can you say ALL Brahmins in Sraddha are aged and
> are
> > greedy for Dakshina. I have seen many Brahmins middle aged sitting in
> > Sraddha and not expecting  high Dakshina. I have seen Brahmins in Sraddha
> > getting not more than 200 rupees. I have seen many young Brahmin
> Purohitas
> > performing Sraddha ceremony. What can you say to that? Kindly stop making
> > general statements on Brahmins. Every Brahmin is different.
> >
> > It is only people like the above members try to justify why they cannot
> do
> > Sraddha properly. I agree Sraddha is not easy and cheap ceremony. But it
> is
> > not beyond the reach of a middle class Brahmin. The same people
> complaining
> > of high Sraddha expenditure Maximum 10000 rupees yearly will not hesitate
> > for a nano second to give lakhs of rupees yearly for the children's
> > education in India and abroad. They proudly even say they paid lakhs to
> > educate children in front of friends. The most dangerous animal is the
> > Modern Educated Brahmin. He has licked the Britishers boots before
> > Independence and now he is licking the foreigner's boots after
> > Independence. The Britishers filled his mind with contempt for Brahmins
> and
> > he is continuing it now.
> >
> > The giving Swampakam to Brahmins is for lazy and stingy people only. If
> you
> > can afford to spend 10000 rupees Maximum annually and 2 - 3 hours time
> for
> > your departed parents yearly why not do it? Cut your other expenditure
> like
> > eating food in hotels.
> >
> >
> >
> > subrahmanian.v
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Sent from Windows Mail
> > > >
> > > >  *From:* Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l <
> > > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > > > >
> > > > *Sent:* ‎September‎ ‎17‎, ‎2014 ‎10‎:‎38‎ ‎PM
> > > > *To:* A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> > > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Advaita-l] Madhvas custom of Sraddha is not correct
> > > >
> > > > Namaste
> > > > On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 12:16 AM, Ajit Krishnan <
> > ajit.krishnan at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > namaste,
> > > > >
> > > > > Advaitins really aren't in a position to criticize these kinds of
> > minor
> > > > > things. In homas, we see advaitins invoke brahma in darbha as a
> > matter
> > > of
> > > > > course. Often, the purohita recites both portions of the
> > > punyahavachana.
> > > > > The nandi shraddha, which involves a homa and several brahmanas is
> > > hardly
> > > > > being done that way.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I heard we have some freedom for doing Devata Karyas like Homa. We
> can
> > > make
> > > > adjustments and take short cuts. But there is not such liberty  for
> > doing
> > > > Pitru Karyas. You can do Chandi Homa on any day whenever you like.
> But
> > > > Pitru's annual Sraddha must be done exactly on the death tithi date.
> > You
> > > > cannot do it earlier or later some time. Like this there are more
> > > > restrictions for Pitru Karyas.
> > > >
> > > > Second point is the most important part of the Sraddha ritual is the
> > > > Brahmana Bhojana. The Sraddha Karta will invite Pitrus in the body of
> > > > Brahmana and ask them to eat and be pleased in Brahmana's body. If
> > > > Brahmanas are well fed the Pitrus will be pleased. Which Brahmin are
> > you
> > > > pleasing if you keep Darbhe instead of Brahmana? After the Brahmanas
> > have
> > > > taken the food the remaining cooked food is the Pitru Sesha. The
> > Sraddha
> > > > Karta and his family will eat the Pitru Sesha and they be blessed by
> > > Pitrus
> > > > through this Pitru Sesha. How can you get blessings of Pitrus if you
> > are
> > > > not feeding any Brahmana?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > The bigger problem is that few people make an attempt to understand
> > the
> > > > > significance behind what they are doing. Even fewer people do it
> with
> > > > > bhakti and shraddha. And this problem spans all divisions.
> > > > >
> > > > > sasneham,
> > > > >
> > > > >     ajit
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 9:47 PM, Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l <
> > > > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Namaste
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I am seeing lot of Madhvas go to Maths for doing Paksha Sraddha. I
> > > went
> > > > to
> > > > >> learn what they are doing. They are doing Group Sraddha like one
> > > > Purohita
> > > > >> is saying Mantras and instructions and all Kartas are doing at the
> > > same
> > > > >> time. This is not correct.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The second mistake is they are doing only Chataka Sraddha with
> > Darbhe
> > > > >> Brahmanas but not Pratyaksha Brahmanas. They are using Darbhe
> > instead
> > > of
> > > > >> real Brahmanas.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I went to Sankara Math and asked the people there. They also said
> we
> > > > >> should
> > > > >> not do Chataka Sraddha when Brahmins are available. If there is
> > acute
> > > > >> shortage of Brahmanas to sit in Vishwe deva and Pitru Sthana we
> can
> > > use
> > > > >> Darbhe Brahmana.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Other comments welcome.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Regards
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -Venkatesh
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
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> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > -Venkatesh
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > --
> > Regards
> >
> > -Venkatesh
> > _______________________________________________
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-- 
Regards

-Venkatesh