[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: What is avidyA vR^itti as against antaHkaraNa vR^itti?
H S Chandramouli
hschandramouli at gmail.com
Sun Aug 9 05:44:15 CDT 2015
I am clarifying. There is no intention to restart the discussion on the
topic. Sent only for information and use as considered fit.
Regards
On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 3:58 PM, H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Dear Sri Sadananda Ji,
>
> Though the subject is closed, since you had mentioned earlier that you
> were following the talks on Vichara Sagara by Swami Paramarthananda , I
> could not resist the temptation to draw your attention to the reference
> made in the latest talk delivered by Swami Paramarthananda yesterday ( on
> 08 August ) concerning Akhandakara Vritti as well as contribution of
> Vedanta Paribhasha to Vichara Sagara. The talk can be accessed at the link
> << http://www.mediafire.com/download/os2dsmje1i6528k/VS-158-8thAug15.mp3
> >> .
>
> Pranams and Regards
>
> Chandramouli
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 12:30 PM, H S Chandramouli <
> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Vichara Sagara itself follows the definitions as given in Vedanta
>> Paribhasha. Sri Swami Paramarthananda Ji himself mentions this in his
>> current lectures , though I do not remember off hand the specific talk in
>> which he has mentioned as such. Perhaps one of the other members who are
>> following the talks could furnish this info. I will certainly furnish other
>> references perhaps a little later as I am going out of town and wont be
>> having access to my mails for a few days.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
>> Date: Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 12:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] What is avidyA vR^itti as against antaHkaraNa
>> vR^itti?
>> To: H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> Can you give me some references. Thanks
>> Sada
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Tue, 7/28/15, H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] What is avidyA vR^itti as against antaHkaraNa
>> vR^itti?
>> To: "kuntimaddi sadananda" <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2015, 2:30 AM
>>
>> I may also
>> add that vedantic literature generally adopt the terms
>> antahkarana vritti and avidya vritti as defined in Vedanta
>> Paribhasha and Advaita Sidhi.
>> Regards
>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at
>> 11:42 AM, H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> Sri Sadananda Ji,
>> Basically the discussion so far
>> pertained to what is presented in Vedanta Paribhasha and
>> Advaita Sidhi. Very different from what you have considered
>> here. I may be wrong.
>> Pranams and Regards
>> Chandramouli
>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:15 AM,
>> kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>> PraNAms
>>
>>
>>
>> Just for some thought, but not to confuse.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are several aspects involved - pramaa vs bhramaa,
>> smRiti and perception, and whether smRiti comes under
>> separate pramaana. Anandaji also brought in - the internal
>> perceptions - such as emotions- anger, happiness, or certain
>> moods of the mind.
>>
>>
>>
>> Looking from a rational point - The perception for the first
>> time (I think V. Advaita - classifies as indeterminate - not
>> sure about tarkikaas) there is no role of smRiti. and no
>> jaati also here. When a child sees a cow for the first time,
>> a white cow, and mother says - my dear this is a cow- now
>> the cognition of cow and knowledge of the cognition as cow,
>> as supported by aapta vaakya follows - otherwise just
>> cognition of an object without a name. Here pramaa and
>> pramaata are involved at antaHkarana level. From my point,
>> all cognitions are attributive in the sense that senses can
>> only gather (reflective) attributes of the object perceived
>> since original attributes are inseparable from their locus -
>> and vishaya - the cow remains fortunately outside!
>>
>>
>>
>> The first cognition forms a memory sometimes being referred
>> to as samskaara or vaasaana, hence part of kaaraNa shareera
>> - this may be called as avidyaa vRitti.
>>
>>
>>
>> When the child sees another cow which is black, and the
>> mother says this is also cow, - cognition, recognition as
>> well as instincts of jaati are coming into play.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hence even in perception for the second time on - smRiti is
>> coming into picture in recognition part. Hence perception
>> involves both cognition and recognition to some extent or
>> memory is playing a role in the knowledge. Hence avidhyaa
>> vRitti or vaasana samskaara coming in the recognition
>> process and not a cognitive level.Hence we have both
>> antaHkarana vRitti and avidyaa vRitti due to vaasanaas or
>> samskaara or memory.
>>
>>
>>
>> In the sRiti alone without cognition - as someone
>> remembering a cow - then there is no cognition but only
>> internal perception - if we call this as perception.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bhranti comes when the cognition is incomplete (since
>> cognition is mostly attributive and attributives are
>> incomplete due to absence of required secondary conditions
>> such as light etc) and smRitti say snake while seeing a
>> rope.
>>
>>
>>
>> smRiti is some have classified as antaHkarana vRitti while
>> some others as avidya or kaarNa shareera vRitit.
>>
>>
>>
>> With jaati only the general attribute say cowness of the cow
>> comes into picture - this happens only after second perhaps
>> reinforced cognition-recognition cycle.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hari Om!
>>
>> Sadananda
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> On Mon, 7/27/15, H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Subject: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [Advaita-l] What is avidyA
>> vR^itti as against antaHkaraNa vR^itti?
>>
>> To: "Anand Hudli" <anandhudli at hotmail.com>,
>> "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>>
>> Date: Monday, July 27, 2015, 11:32 PM
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Sri Anand Ji,
>>
>>
>>
>> Is not sopadika bhranti (
>>
>> सोपाधिक भ्रान्ति )
>> considered
>>
>> avidya vritti ,
>>
>> even though it can be
>>
>> classified as objective knowledge ? Please clarify.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards and Pranams
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 11:10
>>
>> PM, Anand Hudli via Advaita-l <
>>
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > An attempt to
>>
>> answer some questions.
>>
>> > The difference
>>
>> between objective knowledge and subjective knowledge
>> lies
>>
>> in
>>
>> > the capability of the former type of
>>
>> knowledge to be *directly*
>>
>> >
>>
>> (aparokSheNa) conveyed or used in dealings (vyavahAra)
>> with
>>
>> people other
>>
>> > than the person who has
>>
>> this knowledge. For example, if you see a pot, you
>>
>> > may point it out to others, "this is
>>
>> a pot", and they too will have the
>>
>> >
>>
>> same direct perception of the pot. On the other hand, if
>> you
>>
>> feel happy,
>>
>> > you cannot *directly*
>>
>> convey this feeling to me. There is no way for me to
>>
>> > *directly* feel what you are feeling. You
>>
>> may express your feeling with
>>
>> > some act,
>>
>> words, etc. that allows me to understand your feeling,
>> but
>>
>> this
>>
>> > only gives me an *indirect*
>>
>> knowledge. Coming to illusions such as a
>>
>> > silver-nacre, the advaitasiddhi holds that
>>
>> two cognitions are involved
>>
>> > here. In
>>
>> the (erroneous) cognition, "this is silver",
>> the
>>
>> "this" (idam)
>>
>> > part is
>>
>> objective, but the "silver" (rajatam) part is
>>
>> subjective. Why? When
>>
>> > a person seeing
>>
>> illusory silver says, "this is silver",
>> another
>>
>> person in
>>
>> > the vicinity will certainly
>>
>> see some object as the first person did, but
>>
>> > he/she may not see the object as silver.
>>
>> It is possible the second person
>>
>> > is not
>>
>> affected by the illusion, and may, in fact, see the
>> nacre,
>>
>> not
>>
>> > silver. So the agreement between
>>
>> the first person and the second person is
>>
>> > that there is "something" out
>>
>> there. The knowledge of "something" is
>>
>> > objective and is common to both persons.
>>
>> However, the knowledge of "silver"
>>
>> > is restricted to the first person who is
>>
>> affected by the illusion. The
>>
>> > second
>>
>> person may have the knowledge of nacre, not silver. This
>> is
>>
>> why it
>>
>> > is said avidyAvRtti can be
>>
>> prAtibhAsika or vyAvahArika.
>>
>> > If we look
>>
>> "under the hood" and try to understand what
>> is
>>
>> anataHkaraNa
>>
>> > vRtti and what is
>>
>> avidyAvRtti, it is important to note that objective
>>
>> > knowledge, called "pramA", is
>>
>> gained through a pramANa (means of knowledge,
>>
>> > such as perception, inference, scriptures,
>>
>> etc), while subjective
>>
>> > knowledge,
>>
>> including the prAtibhAsika type, is not so obtained. In
>> the
>>
>> case
>>
>> > of subjective knowledge, the
>>
>> witness-consciousness (sAkShicaitanya)
>>
>> >
>>
>> cognizes it without the need for antaHkaraNavRtti. In
>>
>> contrast, objective
>>
>> > knowledge gained
>>
>> through a pramANa results in the modification of the
>>
>> > antaHkaraNa (mind), called
>>
>> antaHkaraNavRtti. MahamahopAdhyAya Abhyankar has
>>
>> > remarked in his commentary on the
>>
>> siddhAntabindu (dashashlokI):
>>
>> >
>>
>> apramAjnAnaM na manovRttirUpaM kiMtu avidyAvRttirUpaM
>>
>> sAkShyAshrayam.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Anand
>>
>> >
>>
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