[Advaita-l] Fw: Fwd: [advaitin] Yet another Mahavakya in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad

[Satyan Chidambaran]

 Namaste Raghavji,

You wrote:
it would have to be given some qualification such as sapratibandhaka Gyaanam or paroxa-GYAnam - some moniker short of calling it GYAna-vRtti.

Yes, it seems a bit difficult to name it!  It could be called a vRRitti that looks very similar to, but doesn't function as a GYAna vRRitti. It could also becalled an upAsana vRRitti as one superimposes Bramhan status on oneself, but doesn't accept it or know it as a fact. sapratibandhaka GYAnam seems like like a good word as well, but since the noun is GYAnam and adjective is sapratibandhaka, it makes it sound like a type of GYAnam, but it is aGYAnam only!
In case of the Rishi Apaantara Tamas, from what I read he was already a GYAnI but had multiple janma prArabdha. 
Interesting. Is there a reference for this? NiscahaladAsa is asserting here that if one had multiple-janma-prArabdha, then GYAnam can only arise in the last janma. He explains in another section that for a GYAnI, there is no travel. Without travel, there can be no next janma.Hence, it is not possible to say that prArabdha remains and therefore there is another janma for a GYAnI. Please see the below snippet.
वेदस्यायम् सिद्धान्त: - ज्ञानिन: प्राणा: लोकान्तरम् वाSस्मिल्लोके देहान्तरम् वा न प्रप्नुवन्ति । अपि तु अत्रैव अन्त:करणमिन्द्रियाणि च सम्प्रलीयन्ते । प्राणस्य गमनम् विनाशरीरान्तरम् न प्राप्यते । तस्मात् ज्ञानिन: प्रारब्धशेषबलाच्छरीरान्तरम् जायेतेति कथनम् न सम्भवति ।
टिप्पणि:
" न तस्य प्राणा: उत्क्रामन्ति ।" "अत्र ब्रह्म समश्नुते" इति श्रुते:" । 
So it seems contrary to what NishaladAsa is saying that Rishi Apaantara Tamas was already a GYAnI, but still had follow on janmAs?
Thanks for reminding me of that extension to the joke. I recall hearing it in one of SwamijIs talks, or someone telling me about that second laugh for the same joke, but I had forgotten that part!
Regards,--Satyan
    On Saturday, October 30, 2021, 10:07:17 PM GMT+5:30, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 Namaste Satyan jiThank you for your post. And happy to see you are on advaita-l as well!
The ineffective vRtti which arises initially upon shravaNam but is unable to destroy avidyA -  it would have to be given some qualification such as sapratibandhaka Gyaanam or paroxa-GYAnam - some moniker short of calling it GYAna-vRtti. Otherwise the "चरम एव जन्मनि ज्ञानम् ( ज्ञानवृत्ति:) जायेत"  (the Gyaanam arises *only* in the last birth)
 would not be reasonable. (word in bracket is mine). 
It may be more of a semantic difference but the idea is - the pratibandhakas we talk of are w.r.t. GYAnam arising or w.r.t. GYAna phalam being produced - that makes a difference. In case of the Rishi Apaantara Tamas, from what I read he was already a GYAnI but had multiple janma prArabdha. In contrast,  there could be other cases  like Vamadeva where as Sri Nischala Dasa says "चरम एव जन्मनि ज्ञानम् जायेत". 
The two cases seem slightly different?Raghav

P S.A small aside...Regarding the example given by Pujya Swami Dayanandaji about the delayed understanding of a joke as an example of how shravaNam may generate the GYAna vRtti after a delay, I was reminded of the "extended" anecdote told by him. 
I recollect Swami Dayanandaji saying something like this- 
"One joke can generate *many* laughs. I related a joke in the class and some students laughed because they got it. One mAmA did not get it immediately but some days later he came and met me. The maamaa said that although he did not get the joke when I related it in the class, after he went home, he was having a relaxing shower ... and suddenly the joke dawned on him and he laughed heartily. Then the maamaa explained how he figured out the joke. Listening to his explanation of the joke, I laughed...because he *still* had not got it...!!!"




On Fri, 29 Oct, 2021, 12:03 pm Satyan Chidambaran, <satyan_c at yahoo.com> wrote:

 Namaste Raghavji, Bhaskarji, Venkatraghavanji,
Very interesting points Raghavji!
Three points in this regard:
1) Swami Dayanandaji used to give an example of a person who is told a joke by his friend. He doesn't get it at that point, and the one who told the joke is a bit disappointed. But a few days later, when showering with water falling on his bald head, that person recalls the joke. Perhaps the warm water falling on his head improved the blood circulation or perhaps due to some other reason reason which we cannot pinpoint, his joke understanding pratibandha was removed. He suddenly got the meaning of the joke and has a hearty laugh! Thus the same words have a delayed result.
2) With regards to vAmadeva, vichAra sAgara discusses this point in detail (please see reference below from Topic 467). sAdhu nishchaladAsa says that generally an action produces an adRRiShTa karma phala which is experienced in entirety in some future janma and exhausted completely in that janma itself. However, there are certain rare cases in which a single action produce a karma phalam which cannot be exhausted in one janma but requires multiple janmas to exhaust.  Now,let us consider the case of a sAdhaka who has such a karma phala fructifying which has to yield its result over multiple janmas.  In that case, even if such a sAdhaka is qualified and does shravaNam, such a karma phala which mandates more janmas will act like a pratibandha. After shravaNam, the shAstra janya aham brahmAsmi vRRitti may be there, but that vRRitti will not act like a GYAna vRRitti (as in case of bharcChu kathA example, bharcChu directly saw his minister but could not accept that it was his minister due to some pratibandha). Hence, that vRRitti is unable to destroy aGYAnam. This will continue to be the case  until the last janma mandated by that special karma phala is taken. When the last janma is taken, the special karma phala is totally exhausted, the pratibandha is automatically removed. The same vRRitti which was incapable of acting as an aGYAnA nAshaka GYAna vRRitti now suddenly acts like a GYAna vRRitti and destroys aGYAnam. The job is done!
यत्रैकेन कर्मणा अनेक शरीराणि जायन्ते, तत्र चरम एव जन्मनि ज्ञानम् जायेत, न तु पूर्वतन शरीरेषु ।अनेक शरीरप्रदप्रारब्धस्य तत्र प्रतिबन्धकत्वात् । यथा (१) विषयासक्ति: (२) बुद्धिमान्द्यम् (३) भेदवादिद्वैवैतशास्त्रवचनविश्वासश्चेत्यादिर्ज्ञानप्रतिबन्ध: तथाविलक्षणप्रारब्धमपि ज्ञानप्रतिबन्धकमेव । प्रतिबन्धसद्भावदशायां क्रियमाणम् ज्ञानसाधनीभूतंश्रवणमननादिकं सर्वं प्रतिबन्धकनिवृत्त्यनन्तरमेव चिरकालप्रतिबद्धमपि प्रथमजन्मकृतमेव सत्शरीरान्तरे ज्ञानमुत्पादयति । तद्यथा "वामदेवस्य किलर्षे: पूर्वजन्मनि कृतश्रवणदेरपिप्रारब्धकर्ममफलभूतेनैकेनेव शरीरेण शेषभूतेन बलवता प्रतिबन्धात् न ज्ञानम् उद्भूतम् श्रवणद्यनुष्ठायदशायमेव । शरीरपातेन शरीरानन्तरप्राप्तिसमये पूर्ववजन्ममकृतमेव श्रवणदिकम् तस्यगर्भ एव ज्ञानम् जनयति स्म । 
3) panchadashIkAra in Chapter 9 extensively discusses this situation where a student has done shravaNam, has parokSha GYAnam but doesn't yet have aparokSha GYAnam. He can come to the aham brahmAsmi vRRitti with the help of the mahAvakyam but it doesn't destroy his aGYAnam. There is presence of some pratibandha tha blocks the vRRitti from acting like a GYAna vRRitti. VidyAraNya suggests nirguNa brahma upAsana. The nirguNa bramha upAsanadoesn't directly contribute to rise of GYAnam. However, the puNyam that the upAsana generates counters the pratibandha. When the pratibandha is removed, the same vRRitti becomes a GYAna vRRitti and destroys aGYAnam.
Regards,--Satyan
    On Thursday, October 28, 2021, 01:33:53 PM GMT+5:30, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:  
 
 Namaste Venkatraghavan ji
There do not seem to be any references to say that shravaNam has to be done
afresh once again after manana and nidhidhyAsanam have already removed the
samshaya and viparyaya obstacles.

Also if it is insisted that hearing the words tat tvam asi from the outside
is required once again after SMN, then the samskAra can be used to utter
the words aloud by oneself because tAtparya niscaya is already present.

Once tAtparya niscaya is there, it does not seem logical to assert the need
for once again repeating the entire long shravaNa process over again.

In laukika cases, samskAra is not regarded as a independent pramANa, but
the samskAra of shravaNam has the capacity to produce vRttis which then
remove the avidyA. It is shravaNam alone that is producing the GYAnam even
in laukika cases.

Even in the initial shravaNam, the use of air waves and the indriya golakas
for receiving the vAkyas is permitted. Also there is a time delay between
the utterance by the Guru and hearing by the student. These physical
transmission mechanisms (avAntara kAraNas) do not alter the fact that it is
shravaNam alone that is the cause of the GYAnam.

Laukika examples are plentiful. A lecture on physics or maths by the
Acharya is not understood when initially heard but later by dwelling on
what is heard, the laukika GYAnam of physics or some mathematical theorem
does indeed arise in the case of manda madhyama students.

In such laukika cases of Gyaanam arising after a time delay, the samskAra
is accepted as facilitating the pramANa giving rise to Gyaanam. Even in
such "delayed" Gyaanam the samskAra is not the pramANam but it does play a
facilitative role.

It can be asserted that same holds for GYAnam produced by shravaNam
facilitated by its samskAra.

Even in the case of the immediate arising of GYAnam upon shravaNam , as
indicated in brahma sUtra bhAShya (1.3.28) on shabda pramANam in
devatAdhikaranam, the samskAra of the varNas of the words of 'tat' and
'tvam' produces the vAkya GYAnam (upon 'asi' being heard) and without the
facilitative role played by the samskAra of the chronologically earlier
words tat and tvam whose sounds are no longer present, the Gyaanam does not
arise. Therefore the mere mediacy of samskAra in the shravaNam process does
not render a given GYAnam as "not due to shravaNam".


Om