[Advaita-l] Fwd: Brahman has no default form; Only contextual form - Varaha Purana

Bhaskar YR bhaskar.yr at hitachienergy.com
Tue Feb 28 01:59:42 EST 2023
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The bhautika element can't be ignored. Mayopadhi can be of this nature too. This is what the  Laghuchandrika says for 'aprAkRta'

praNAms 
Hare Krishna

Yes, when this 'bhautika' / upAdhi element is not ignored, obviously this bhautika upAdhi is different as a result names and forms of this and its origination too different.  In this way, rAma is NOT krishNa and KrishNa is NOT vAmana etc.  aprAkruta shareera we often hear in dvaita philosophy, if at all we attribute an aprakrutic shareera / upAdhi to the Ishwara, with the same breath we have to accept Ishwara has an aprakrutic vraNAm and aprAkrutic sins as well after all what we are defining here as Ishwara is shuddha sattva pradhAaM which is a part and parcel of some 'original' ajnAna only.  ashareeratvaM is svAbhAvika for the Ishwara / brahman  and due to apekshitOpAdhi saMbandha he would appear as saguNa / kArya brahman.  paraM chet jnAtavyaM aparaM chet prAptavyaM says bhagavatpAda is katha bhAshya.  If we say Ishwara is sattva guNa yukta mAyAvi and jeeva is malina sattva guNa yukta ajnAni and for the both there is some original ajnAna as the base it is as good as saying the same ajnAna is the dominating force in both jeeva and Ishwara!!??  From this conclusion there is hAny to say Ishwara is nitya, shuddha, buddha, mukta Ishwara and Ishwara is avidyA vinirmukta and eternally pure (nitya parishuddha).  

Further 'dehavAn eva lakshyate' can be equally applicable to paramArtha jnAni also since he has the paramArtha Atma jnana and that jnana of Atman/brahman would fetch him the knowledge that he was / is/will always be bodyless only since what he is 'is brahman' and the very nature of this brahman is disembodiedness. 'ashareeratvaM svAbhAvikaM'.  In this sense not only rAma or Krishna each and every one is ashareeri only .  And when 'we' think we are shAreeri the shareera of rAma, Krishna, devi, shiva too have the shareera with bhautika element like Krishna is having the legs which he decided to show to the hunter to do deha tyAga and rAma entered sarayu river to put full stop to his mAnusha janma.  

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar

Bhaskar YR
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Advaita-l <advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> On Behalf Of V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 11:46 AM
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Cc: V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fwd: Brahman has no default form; Only contextual form - Varaha Purana

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On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 10:06 AM H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l < advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste.
>
> Sri Subrahmanian Ji wrote
>
> Reg  <<  Even in the case of the form of say, Krishna, the 'bhautika'
> element is
> very much there: From a fetus in the womb, to the baby, there was 
> growing up into an adult, a man and one who became grand and great 
> grandfather. All these are characteristics of any other human body >>,
>
> Body of Sri Krishna is not admitted to be “bhautika”.
>

Namaste.

I am aware of the fact that it is not bhautika. But such a body was 'conceived' in the womb, delivered, grew up, became old, etc.  There is also a mention in the Bhagavatam that Krishna was even wounded by arrows and bled. Surely the need for sleep, food, etc. was also there. One might say all this is 'leela'. But the body behaved in no different way than any other body. Krishna also was cremated for which Arjuna had gone. All this is not due to karma of the ordinary jiva type.

I meant only this. The bhautika element can't be ignored. Mayopadhi can be of this nature too. This is what the  Laghuchandrika says for 'aprAkRta' in
Advaitasiddhi:

तथा च अप्राकृतपदेन प्राकृतविलक्ष्सणमायोपाधिकत्वेन....   If anyone can
elucidate this line that would help....

He says this in the gloss for the Siddhi's words: अत एव 'अरूपतोऽप्राकृतशे'ति स्मृत्यैवारूपश्रुतिगत्युक्तेः...(Pariccheda 2 ananthakrishna Sastry edition page 744)

regards
subbu

>
> BGB, Introductory part to 1st Chapter,
>
> <<  स च भगवान् ज्ञानैश्वर्यशक्तिबलवीर्यतेजोभिः सदा सम्पन्नः 
> त्रिगुणात्मिकां स्वां मायां मूलप्रकृतिं वशीकृत्य, अजोऽव्ययो 
> भूतानामीश्वरो नित्यशुद्धबुद्धमुक्तस्वभावोऽपि सन् , स्वमायया देहवानिव 
> जात इव च लोकानुग्रहं कुर्वन् लक्ष्यते । >>
>
> <<  sa cha bhagavAn j~nAnaishvaryashaktibalavIryatejobhiH sadA 
> sampannaH triguNAtmikAM svAM mAyAM mUlaprakRRitiM vashIkRRitya, 
> ajo.avyayo bhUtAnAmIshvaro nityashuddhabuddhamuktasvabhAvo.api san , 
> svamAyayA dehavAniva jAta iva cha lokAnugrahaM kurvan lakShyate | >>,
>
> Translation  by Krishna Warrier  <<  The Lord is in eternal possession 
> of knowledge,lordliness, executive power, strength, energy and 
> splendor. He has under His control His All-pervasive mAyA (Illusive 
> power) or material nature, whose essence  is the three constituents. 
> Thus, though unborn,immutable, Lord of beings, and, in essence, 
> eternally pure, conscious and free, He appears, by virtue of His mAyA, 
> to be embodied and born as man, for ensuring the welfre of the world 
> >>
>
> BGB, referred part above, also mentions
>
> <<  स आदिकर्ता नारायणाख्यो विष्णुः भौमस्य ब्रह्मणो ब्राह्मणत्वस्य 
> रक्षणार्थं  देवक्यां वसुदेवादंशेन कृष्णः किल सम्बभूव । >>
>
> <<  sa AdikartA nArAyaNAkhyo viShNuH bhaumasya brahmaNo brAhmaNatvasya 
> rakShaNArthaM devakyAM vasudevAdaMshena kRRiShNaH kila sambabhUva | >>
>
> Anandagiri tIka  on this observes
>
> <<  *अंशेनेति** ।*
>
> स्वेच्छानिर्मितेन मायामयेन स्वरूपेणेत्यर्थः ।  >>
>
> <<  aMsheneti | svechChAnirmitena mAyAmayena svarUpeNetyarthaH |  >>
>
> BGB 4-6 also mentions
>
> <<  तां प्रकृतिं स्वाम् अधिष्ठाय वशीकृत्य सम्भवामि देहवानिव भवामि जात 
> इव आत्ममायया आत्मनः मायया, न परमार्थतो लोकवत् ॥ ६ ॥ >>
>
> << tAM prakRRitiM svAm adhiShThAya vashIkRRitya sambhavAmi dehavAniva 
> bhavAmi jAta iva
>
> AtmamAyayA AtmanaH mAyayA, na paramArthato lokavat || 6 || >>
>
> Translation (Swami Gambhirananda)  <<  By subjugating that Prakriti of 
> Mine, sambhavami, I take birth, appear to become embodied, as though 
> born; Atma mAyayA, by means of my own mAyA; but not in reality like an 
> ordinary man >>
>
> Regards
>
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2023 at 10:15 PM V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l < 
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Dear Raghav ji,
> >
> > Even in the case of the form of say, Krishna, the 'bhautika' element 
> > is very much there: From a fetus in the womb, to the baby, there was 
> > growing up into an adult, a man and one who became grand and great grandfather.
> All
> > these are characteristics of any other human body.
> >
> > I think in the Advaita siddhi there is a clarification on what 
> > really is
> > a-prAkRta:  The Laghuchandrika commentary states the distinction 
> > between what is a-prAkRta and prAkRta.  I would like to get more clarity on this.
> >
> > warm regards
> > subbu
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 24, 2023 at 8:51 PM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l 
> > < advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Namaste Subbu ji
> > > That is the crux of the issue of whether the forms worshipped as
> Ishvara
> > > are indeed direct manifestation of Ishvara or they are exalted 
> > > jeevas
> who
> > > attained those forms and as arthavAda they are praised as Ishvara.
> > >
> > > Once we acknowledge that icchAvaShAt, Ishvara can directly assume 
> > > a mAyAmaya sharIra (which did not have a prior karma chronology as 
> > > is
> > indeed
> > > the case with devatAs), then both avatAras of bhUloka like Sri 
> > > Krishna
> > and
> > > also other forms like vAmana, Narasimha,  Uma Haimavati etc 
> > > asserted by
> > the
> > > shAstra as available for interaction in other lokas are all direct
> forms
> > of
> > > Ishvara who is himself kAraNopAdhika and has no one fixed or 
> > > default
> > form.
> > > The mere fact that these direct forms of Ishvara are bhautika does 
> > > not imply jeevatvam.
> > >
> > >  "Any intelligent being endowed with a bhautika form (of one or 
> > > more of
> > the
> > > five elements) is necessarily a jeeva" has hetu vyabhichAra in the 
> > > case
> > of
> > > avatAras. So once that idea is dismissed, the forms worshipped 
> > > viShNu
> etc
> > > ., can well be within the bhautika prapancha without any 
> > > detrimental to their IshvaratvaM.
> > >
> > > Thank you and Venkat ji for clarifying the sAyujya question 
> > > amongst
> other
> > > insightful posts.
> > >
> > > Om
> > >
> > > P S. The pic sent by you looks more like viShNu rather than Shiva 
> > > but apparently he is called tri-shira Shiva.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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