[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Kilogram not yet concluded after all

[Michael Chandra Cohen]

Namaste Sudhanshuji,
Please, let us not argue gratuitously - I am only asking for evidence. I
have seen the claim made more than once in this forum. For instance,. Sri
Venkatraghavan, "I don't think there is any commentator that has held that
ajnAna is not adhyastha". If that is the case, then ajnana or mulavidya is
not the positive seed shakti but rather a 'product' itself and thus not a
'mula'

regards,
Michael

On Fri, Sep 6, 2024 at 8:33 AM 'Raghav Kumar' via advaitin <
advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Namaste
>
>
> The counter-argument by those who feel ignorance  is just absence of
> knowledge would be -
> It's just figurative usage (like being "overpowered" by Sleep). Similarly
> ignorance "covers" knowledge.
>
> No matter how many references are shown, as long as one has already
> reached a "commonsensical" conclusion based on 19th century science that
> light consists of particles and when there are no particles, it is *by
> definition* called darkness, no change in position will occur. No
> discussion can change a person's semantic definitions.
>
> Those who argue for darkness being merely perception of absence miss an
> important nuance in human perception as was pointed by many of you earlier
> in this thread. Whenever we experience "absence" such as when we see the
> absence of a pot on the ground, there are two steps viz., direct perception
> which exhausts itself in only giving us knowledge of the adhikaraNam viz.,
> the ground. And then there is a second step whereby, (based on contextual
> need), we *recollect* a pot and then recognize and assert it's absence.
> This is the anupalabdhi pramANa.
>
> In the case of the direct experience of darkness, if we say it's just the
> absence of light, what is the adhikaraNa (locus) where this "absence of
> light" is experienced. That locus itself  has to be a matter of direct
> perception. That locus cannot be an abhAva. That is darkness itself.
> Therefore it is a regular experience that we experience darkness *without*
> necessarily having to *think* about light.
>
> Similarly, even when one closes one's eyes, the darkness experienced is a
> direct perceptual experience in itself. It's not contingent on recollecting
> the thought of light etc. Such recognition of absence of light is an
> optional additional datum that one can sense and may indeed occur quite
> often.
>
> The knowledge of Darkness occurs,  not by anupalabdhi pramANam. The
> knowledge of Darkness is by pratyaxa or direct perception. Additionally one
> may optionally choose to recollect the idea of "light" and assert it's
> absence. That too is correct but is optional.
>
> Om
> Raghav
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer
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>
> On Fri, 6 Sept 2024 at 5:15 pm, H S Chandramouli
> <hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Dennis Ji,
>
> Reg  // Although I cannot say that I feel I now have one//,
>
> What about the BG 5-15 verse copied below. Does it meet with your
> requirements.
>
> // नादत्ते कस्यचित्पापं न चैव सुकृतं विभुः ।
> अज्ञानेनावृतं ज्ञानं तेन मुह्यन्ति जन्तवः ॥ १५ ॥ //
>
> // nAdatte kasyachitpApaM na chaiva sukRRitaM vibhuH |
>
> aj~nAnenAvRRitaM j~nAnaM tena muhyanti jantavaH || 15 ||//.
>
> Translation  // The Omnipresent neither accepts anybody's sin nor even
> virtue. *Knowledge remains covered by ignorance.* Thereby the creatures
> become deluded // .
>
>
>
> Bhashya // …. अज्ञानेन आवृतं ज्ञानं विवेकविज्ञानम् , तेन मुह्यन्ति ‘करोमि
> कारयामि भोक्ष्ये भोजयामि’ इत्येवं मोहं गच्छन्ति अविवेकिनः संसारिणो जन्तवः
> ॥ १५ ॥ //.
>
> // // …. aj~nAnena AvRRitaM j~nAnaM vivekavij~nAnam , tena muhyanti
> ‘karomi kArayAmi bhokShye bhojayAmi’ ityevaM mohaM gachChanti avivekinaH
> saMsAriNo jantavaH || 15 ||//.
>
> Translation // ……..To this the Lord says: Jnanam, knowledge,
> discriminating wisdom; remains avrtam, covered; ajnanena, by ignorance.
> Tena, thereby; jantavah, the creatures, the non-discriminating people in
> the world; muhyanti, become deluded thus-'I do; I make others do; I eat; I
> make others eat.' //.
>
> Regards
>
>
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> On Fri, Sep 6, 2024 at 4:54 PM H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Dennis Ji,
>
> Reg  //  I am bound to ask: why, then, is not everyone enlightened? //.
>
> That is the issue we are discussing !!! When I mentioned about the debate
> between Vevkat Ji and Bhaskar Ji, the question was what was stated by
> Venkat Ji, copied below for ready reference.
>
> V ;; // If ignorance was not "something existent", why is the
> self-effulgent Brahman not known by all? //.
>
> The debate did not reach the point of furnishing the answer to this.
>
> I do know that Sri SSS addresses this question directly. But since it
> would be my understanding of the position of Sri SSS, and not being his
> follower my understanding could be dismissed as coloured, I suggested that
> you could persuade some of his followers to present the position taken by
> Sri SSS. Does he provide an answer which involves absence of any
> obstruction. The answer provided by Sri Bhagavatpada in our opinion is the
> obstruction caused by a *positive* entity termed ajnAna, but not understood
> as merely *absence of knowledge*.
>
> Reg  // Finally, as Arun Murthi pointed out in his paper on mūlāvidyā,
> ‘removing ignorance’ is not the same as ‘removing a thorn’//,
>
> Common. MūlāvidyāvAdins also never claimed it is same as ‘removing a
> thorn’. I would dismiss it with contempt. I am surprised that you are
> giving credence to it.
>
> Regards
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2024 at 4:32 PM <dwaite at advaita.org.uk> wrote:
>
> Thank you all for the responses to my request for a śruti quotation to
> support the contention that ignorance is an ontologically existent entity.
> (Although I cannot say that I feel I now have one.)
>
>
>
> Thank you to Sudhanshu-ji for the Ṛg Veda reference. Unfortunately, my
> familiarity with this is zero. A general point here, which is unfortunately
> likely to raise a few hackles: I tend to ignore all references to gods,
> supernatural events, etc. unless Śaṅkara’s commentary elicits clear
> metaphorical relevance to something useful. I’m sure all such things had
> their relevance to past cultures, but I suggest they are superfluous to
> today’s seekers. (Rinse my mouth out with vinegar!)
>
>
>
> I also recall that there was an Advaitin member over 20 years ago who used
> to respond to practically every post with a comment about ajāti vāda. It
> used to really annoy me. Now, of course, having written a book on Māṇḍūkya
> and kārikā-s, there is a tendency to respond similarly! Essentially,
> though, I do not feel that (effectively) saying that ‘before light, there
> was darkness’ is very persuasive.
>
>
>
> Thank you to Venkatraghavan-ji for the Bṛhadāraṇyaka and Sureśvara
> Vārttika references. While it is true that much of Śaṅkara’s teaching
> derives from this Upaniṣad, it does contain a lot of the ‘supernatural’
> stuff I referred to above, being so old. I actually think Sureśvara's
> Vārttika on Puruṣavidha Brāhmaṇa (1368) gives a clearer message. I’m sure
> someone must have quoted it earlier:
>
>
>
> अजानं संशयजानं मिश्याजानमिति त्रिकम्
>
> अजानं कारणं तत्र कार्यत्वं परिशिष्टयोः
>
>
>
> Ignorance, doubt-born knowledge, and mixed knowledge are the triad.
> Ignorance (ajñāna) is the cause there, while the other two (doubt-born
> knowledge and mixed knowledge) are effects.
>
>
>
> But, to my mind at least, the first reference to ajñāna as the cause could
> equally well be translated as ‘lack of knowledge’ – and makes far more
> sense. Surely, lack of knowledge is what leads to confusion and all
> cognitive errors.
>
>
>
> Thank you to Jaishankar-ji for removing the Devanagari from his erudite
> document. Unfortunately, the complicated logical argumentation still seems
> to be there…
>
>
>
> Thank you to Subbu-ji, for more Br. Up and Vārttika. But this mentions
> gods and death again.
>
>
>
> Finally, thank you to Chandramouli-ji. You say that learning Cantonese is
> not a good analogy because “*Consciousness* is svaprakAsha meaning that it
> stands *revealed* automatically, effortlessly.” I am bound to ask: why,
> then, is not everyone enlightened? My understanding is that we need a
> qualified guru to explain all this to us by interpreting the scriptures.
>
>
>
> Your point that “*absence of knowledge* is not possible in the presence of
> Self-revealing Consciousness” is well made. But it does presuppose that
> ‘ignorance’ or ‘absence’ is an ontological entity. I have probably already
> said that Vol. 2 of the ‘Confusions in Advaita Vedanta’ (currently with the
> publisher) is solely on the topic of ‘Ignorance and its Removal’ and runs
> to over 100,000 words. Hence the impossibility of stating all my thoughts
> on the subject here. My understanding of this point is simply that SSS
> considers that ‘ignorance’ is an epistemological concept and not an
> ontological one. The epistemological position is that ignorance is purely
> subjective, dependent upon the mind and affecting how we perceive reality.
> He says, for example:
>
>
>
> “*If one admits the non-dual principle as the final reality, there is no
> place for any objections. One cannot impute even a trace of ignorance or of
> any other defect to the non-dual reality. For the Veda says, ‘What could a
> person see then, and with what?’(B**ṛ**ihad. Up. 2.4.1) In empirical
> experience, on the other hand, wherever and in whatever way Ignorance is
> experienced, it must be accepted there in that way. There are no objections
> to be raised or answered.*” (The Method of the Vedanta, A. J. Alston)
>
>
>
> Finally, as Arun Murthi pointed out in his paper on mūlāvidyā, ‘removing
> ignorance’ is not the same as ‘removing a thorn’.
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Dennis
>
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